The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 04:15pm
softball_junky
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
It looks like I am in the minority, but I think the call was correct. I recorded the game and watched it several times. The ball was in the circle and the runner stood for two full seconds before moving toward the base. I don’t know about ISF but in ASA ISA and FED, the rule states the runner must be moving immediately when the ball is returned to the circle. I give the runner about two seconds and it appeared the Umpire making the call did the same. There is no mention of how far the runner is off the base. As far as ending the game this way it was unfortunate, however, if you will call it in the first inning you should call it in the final inning. The call earlier in the game when the runner was called out for leaving early at first base was more border line than this one.

Last edited by softball_junky; Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 05:59pm.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 04:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Like a lot of rules you can apply them as in the rule book or rule them as the INTENT the rule was written .
This is one of them .
The intent is to stop the cat and mouse between pitcher and runner , in this case it was not happening , the runner was returning to the base .
A classic example is if you rule a batter out for bunting on the 3rd strike .
Follow your definitions and see what you come up with and there are many more .
This was a bad call and as worse than the one last year when the Australian runner was ruled out for removing her helmet on base when there was no play .
Umpires should not get into the game this way , there was just no need .
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 05:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by latraveler
As a high school and rec umpire I have to say this call simply was a bad call. I've watched it over and over and over. The baserunner WAS stepping back to the bag and was only two steps away when Cat was in the circle. I see this SAME thing happen every week of the various seasons I umpire. Never would I have called it unless the player was failing to move. I had players farther off the base and be stepping back to the bag and not called it.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion, what does the distance have to do with anything? I doesn't make any difference whether the runner is one step or 30 feet off the base, the LBR is an appropriate call if the runner does not return in a timely fashion.

Quote:
Plus we always been told "Don't become part of the game", don't end the game on a "Controversial call", and don't become the "focus of the game".
Say what? If that means you don't make a call because it may become controversial or bring attention to the umpire, then I cannot disagree more. You see it, you call it regardless of where you are in the game.

Quote:
This Ump sure became the "center of attention"! What a way to end and ruin a great series for the USA team.
I'm sure she wasn't looking for the attention. I have no doubt that Dora believe she made the appropriate call at the time. If you continued to watch after the call was made, she did confer with the crew and then made a second "out" signal reinforcing her original call. Don't know what was said at that point, but apparently none of her crew had anything to cause the call to be changed.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 21, 2007, 09:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North Texas
Posts: 429
i saw it for the first time today - i thought it was way too quick for a LBR violation
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 02:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
I don't have benefit of a recording to go frame-by-frame; the only video I've seen is the low-resolution long distance shot on the ESPN site, so it is hard to tell what the runner is doing between the time the ball is back in the circle and the runner makes her first obvious move (obvious on the video). But, the time between those two is 1+ seconds by my estimate. That is a quick LBR call, but not out of line.

Maybe the real perception problem is the PU waited another second or two to actually make the call, and by then the runner was moving.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 05:49pm
softball_junky
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
You are correct this is the intent of the rule is to stop the cat and mouse between pitcher and runner. But you say in this case it was not happening. I don't know I can't read the runner's mind. The runner was standing there, Cat was not having anything to do with it turned and walked into the circle. The runner was returning to the base but not until standing still for two second after the ball was inside the circle.

The rule book states the runner must move immediately, This puts the judgment on the umpire. I feel two seconds is time enough to find the ball and start moving back or forward to a base. Your judgment may be three seconds, or maybe five or maybe stand there until you decided the runner is playing cat and mouse. If that is your judgment that is fine. I just don't call it that way.

Last edited by softball_junky; Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 06:01pm.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 07:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by softball_junky
I don't know I can't read the runner's mind.
Weak "excuse" for not making a call or not being able to determine intent.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 08:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hurricane, WV
Posts: 800
Send a message via AIM to Mountaineer Send a message via Yahoo to Mountaineer
I went back and watched it again and I don't see it - she's clearly retreating to the base when the PU calls her out. Wrong call - period.
__________________
Larry Ledbetter
NFHS, NCAA, NAIA

The best part about beating your head against the wall is it feels so good when you stop.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 22, 2007, 11:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer
I went back and watched it again and I don't see it - she's clearly retreating to the base when the PU calls her out. Wrong call - period.
Instead of looking at when the PU made the call, look at when the ball was back in the circle. How long after that before the runner moved? I can imagine the reason for the delay in the call ("Did I just see what I saw????"). At least I can see me hesitating on the call...
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 06:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Tom, I agree. I think part of the issue was the umpire's position. She was in a position that did not allow her to see both pitcher and runner at the same time. In her explanation to the coach, the umpire supposedly noted she looked at one then the other (pitcher and runner) and then again and made the call.

From our angle, and that of the cameras, we can all sit at our computer and judge, but none of us can say we would do anything different if it were us on the field. To do so would be very presumptuous.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 11:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Instead of looking at when the PU made the call, look at when the ball was back in the circle. How long after that before the runner moved? I can imagine the reason for the delay in the call ("Did I just see what I saw????"). At least I can see me hesitating on the call...
There was a replay of the game this weekend and I recorded it on my DVR. In watching the replays that ESPN showed, all of them were in slow motion. There was no "real time" replay to judge exactly how long Cat had the ball before the runner took her first step. I would like to have seen a replay at regular speed but from what I saw I believe (1) the PU was not in a good position to make the call and (2) was "probably" too quick on the triger. BU1 was in a much better position and didn't even put up the hammer until after PU started to.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 23, 2007, 03:56pm
softball_junky
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Weak "excuse" for not making a call or not being able to determine intent.
All I am saying is I don't know why the runner is standing there and don't care. I do know the runner has a a time period when she is required to start moving.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 24, 2007, 03:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in TX, formerly Seattle area
Posts: 1,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by softball_junky
All I am saying is I don't know why the runner is standing there and don't care. I do know the runner has a a time period when she is required to start moving.
And that time period would be ...

My rule book says immediately. Many officials will give a silent count of "one thousand one..." but that is not cast in stone.
__________________
John
An ucking fidiot
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 24, 2007, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 293
I called a look back rule violation to end a state tournament several years ago. I saw it and I called it. Any umpire that calls a game should just call the game. I did not think "Wow this will end the game". No TV though, but I did get followed to my car.

Was anyone who posted here at the game? What happened off camera?
__________________
ASA,NCAA,FED,NAFA
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 24, 2007, 01:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by latraveler
Plus we always been told "...don't end the game on a "Controversial call."
Please ask whoever is always telling you this to send back their trainers card. It's been revoked.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
4th Quarter ends tie game! T to coach? flsh224 Basketball 8 Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:02pm
Balk ends NCAA game TriggerMN Baseball 65 Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:04pm
Boys Varsity game ends 5-2 Rich Basketball 6 Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:12am
Triple Play Ends Game whiskers_ump Softball 0 Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:56pm
Grand Slam ends the game? TriggerMN Baseball 10 Tue May 20, 2003 12:33pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1