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Dakota Mon Jul 09, 2007 06:50pm

NFHS 2008 rule changes
 
2008 rule changes:

3-2-11 will be changed to allow metal cleats.

1-5-4 will be changed to state that a bat must pass the ASA 2004 BPF, bear EITHER the 2000 or 2004 stamp and not be on the ASA banned list.

Rules will be changed, added, etc. to clarify ODB interference and the penalty.

This info is not officially from the NFHS, but from the NFCA.

wadeintothem Mon Jul 09, 2007 07:59pm

Thats terrible about the metal cleats..

I hate those things.. the destroyer of plate shoes.

AtlUmpSteve Mon Jul 09, 2007 09:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota
1-5-4 will be changed to state that a bat must pass the ASA 2004 BPF, bear EITHER the 2000 or 2004 stamp and not be on the ASA banned list.

According to that site, NOT CHANGED; clarified. NFHS NEVER intended the rule to be interpreted that the ASA 2000 certification was insufficient, as some states have directed. As discussed in other threads and forums, bats which have the ASA 2000 certification and are not listed on the banned bat list do meet the ASA 2004 requirements.

Dakota Mon Jul 09, 2007 09:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
According to that site, NOT CHANGED; clarified. NFHS NEVER intended the rule to be interpreted that the ASA 2000 certification was insufficient, as some states have directed. As discussed in other threads and forums, bats which have the ASA 2000 certification and are not listed on the banned bat list do meet the ASA 2004 requirements.

I'll bet you love telling your wife "I told you so"... :rolleyes:

Notice, I didn't say the rule's intent will be changed, but it is a fact that the rule's words will be changed (at least according to NFCA). This is not an interpretation, but a change to the written rule. To clarify the intent, I'm sure. Good thing, too, given the variation from state to state in the instructions given to umpires and the somewhat meaningless "approved" list from ASA as it pertains to older bat models.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 10, 2007 07:06am

Remember, as Tom said, this is from NFCA. The lawyers will have a great time with the metal cleats. I'm surprised they are allowed in baseball.

BTW, I believe this change is a xxxx xxxxxx xxx thing and do not believe to be in the best interest of the players or their parent's insurance company. Many of these players do NOT know how to properly slide and a fair amount of coaches do not teach it.

AtlUmpSteve Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:37pm

This is all according to NFHS; it is on their website. NFCA simply picked up the press release.

2008 Major Editorial Changes

1-5-4
Clarifies that a legal bat must meet the 2004 ASA Bat Performance Standard, bear either the 2000 or 2004 certification mark and not be on the ASA non-approved list.

Tom, you are free to consider it an "I told you so"; but, I did. An editorial change that clarifies is not a rule that has changed; it is restated because it was being misapplied, and the rules committee wanted it applied correctly.

Regardless, this isn't the NFCA wishlist that they publish after their convention. It is the list of official changes for 2008.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/08/softball.aspx

Dakota Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
This is all according to NFHS; it is on their website. NFCA simply picked up the press release.

2008 Major Editorial Changes

1-5-4
Clarifies that a legal bat must meet the 2004 ASA Bat Performance Standard, bear either the 2000 or 2004 certification mark and not be on the ASA non-approved list.

Tom, you are free to consider it an "I told you so"; but, I did. An editorial change that clarifies is not a rule that has changed; it is restated because it was being misapplied, and the rules committee wanted it applied correctly.

Regardless, this isn't the NFCA wishlist that they publish after their convention. It is the list of official changes for 2008.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/08/softball.aspx

I was just needling you and there you get all defensive! ;)

Besides, the previous "clarification" from the NFHS was 2000 stamp didn't matter. If it did not have the 2004 stamp, it needed to be on the approved list. The controversy was whether there WERE any bats that had the 2000 stamp and were NOT on the approved list. Turns out there weren't - ASA's "approved list" is a glorified "grandfathered" list for all bats that were not specifically banned prior to 2004.

When I posted the NFCA link, I couldn't find the press release posted yet on the NFHS site. Doesn't mean it wasn't there... but that's why I linked to the NFCA. Since you had to point this out is more evidence of your "I told you so..." approach to life... :D

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 10, 2007 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota
I was just needling you and there you get all defensive! ;)

Besides, the previous "clarification" from the NFHS was 2000 stamp didn't matter. If it did not have the 2004 stamp, it needed to be on the approved list. The controversy was whether there WERE any bats that had the 2000 stamp and were NOT on the approved list. Turns out there weren't - ASA's "approved list" is a glorified "grandfathered" list for all bats that were not specifically banned prior to 2004.

When I posted the NFCA link, I couldn't find the press release posted yet on the NFHS site. Doesn't mean it wasn't there... but that's why I linked to the NFCA. Since you had to point this out is more evidence of your "I told you so..." approach to life... :D

Easy there, big boy. If you consider it an "I told you so" point, that would be fine by me. Steve and I tried to explain this issue as it pertained to the ASA standard and the NFHS rule. We ran into some folks that seemed to have no interest in the correct application, but were more in debunking how to apply the ASA standard to the rule book.

Well, :p . So there! :D

SRW Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:27pm

Metal Cleat Press Release from NFHS - Click Here

2008 Rule Changes from NFHS - Click Here

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 10, 2007 03:33pm

Quote:

"Metal cleats provide better traction for athletes on nearly all surfaces, including hard, wet or under-maintained fields," said Cindy Simmons, chair of the NFHS Softball Rules Committee and assistant executive director of the Oregon School Activities Association. "They also help prevent slippage on the bases, especially home plate."
That depends on the construction of the base, but I know that metal on rubber is not a desirable combination and if there is any place a runner is likely to slip on a base it is the plate. Also, depending on the length and density of grass, spikes do not always provide good, if any, traction.

Quote:

Current rules prohibit runners from illegal tactics when sliding, and if sliding is executed correctly, the risk of defensive players being "spiked" will decrease.
Key phrase in this statement? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

"Executed correctly" may be the downfall of many a HS player next year. I would love to know if Federation set up a committee to moniter additional injuries due to an approved equipment change. And the last sentence is a good one.

If the players haven't been wearing spikes, how and the instances of being spiked be decreased? And what about the instances that still occur? What are the odds that a players getting clipped with plastic/rubber cleats will incur a high level of injury than if straffed with metal spikes?

I wonder if anyone really thought about this before approving it.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 10, 2007 03:45pm

Oh, I forgot about the point that metal spikes have very little give when they work properly. Look for some more rolled ankles and wrenched knees.

BTW, all my posts on this subject come from personal experience. I wore metal spikes up until the local league outlawed them. I also witnessed quite a bit when coaching.

Metal spikes on those who know how to use them is not a bad thing. On players who are barely coached on how to slide properly and in a game where Olympic players have demonstrated sliding as feet-first, I don't think this is a good idea.

Dakota Tue Jul 10, 2007 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
...Steve and I tried to explain this issue as it pertained to the ASA standard and the NFHS rule. We ran into some folks that seemed to have no interest in the correct application, but were more in debunking how to apply the ASA standard to the rule book.

Well, :p . So there! :D

http://www.freeconservatives.com/vb/...ies/lalala.gif

Dakota Tue Jul 10, 2007 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Oh, I forgot about the point that metal spikes have very little give when they work properly. Look for some more rolled ankles and wrenched knees.

BTW, all my posts on this subject come from personal experience. I wore metal spikes up until the local league outlawed them. I also witnessed quite a bit when coaching.

Metal spikes on those who know how to use them is not a bad thing. On players who are barely coached on how to slide properly and in a game where Olympic players have demonstrated sliding as feet-first, I don't think this is a good idea.

Do you think it possible that coaches might have also some experience playing with spikes and realize they can no longer be lax in teaching players how to both slide and how to play their bases correctly?

So long as softball "cleats" were these little plastic knobs, there was little point in spending practice time on the techniques, right?

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 10, 2007 06:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota
Do you think it possible that coaches might have also some experience playing with spikes and realize they can no longer be lax in teaching players how to both slide and how to play their bases correctly?

Possible, but not necessarily so. There is no guarantee the coach is even going to have any softball experience as it isn't required in some areas. Some of these girls are not even aware there are softball shoes with metal plates and spikes on the sole.

Quote:

So long as softball "cleats" were these little plastic knobs, there was little point in spending practice time on the techniques, right?
Have you seen some of the techniques at the HS level? Have you seen some of the college kids slide?

A couple of years ago, an Olympian (Leah O'Brien-Amico maybe) did one of these tip clips on sliding during the NCAA's or Olympic broadcasts.

Her advice was when sliding, lead with your feet and legs into the base. When she demonstrated, it looked as if she basically just threw her feet toward the base and laid down. I was astounded that someone who had made it that far in the game of softball did not know how to slide. I was even more surprised that some idiot had her offering tips to young players.

I don't want to see it, but I'm confident there will be issues involving injuries caused by young ladies wearing equipment with which they are not familiar.

But, Tom, you don't have to believe me. After all, you didn't believe us last year about the bats. :D

Bandit Tue Jul 10, 2007 08:50pm

Cleats
 
Hey...Irish gangster guy....You say all this knowledge you have comes from first hand experience??? Including coaching...... Well, I think if any coach is worth a grain of salt they need to know how to teach sliding properly. So you are saying that all baseball coaches properly teach sliding? Is that why they get to use them? Maybe you do not know how to teach it but they have clinics for that if you would like to attend. I have had countless girls go on to play in college and they all come back and ask why they could not wear metal cleats in high school. I personally wrote letters to the federation trying to get the rule changed. Needless to say, I think they made the right decision.

You dont see girl basketball players wearing penny loafers do you? No, they play on the same surface that the boys do and they are permitted to wear the same type of shoe because it gives them the best traction. Listen carefully, I will type slow so you can understand me....the rule doesnt state that they HAVE to wear them. It just gives them the option.

There is a reason why high school baseball, college baseball and softball, pro baseball and softball wear them. They dont wear them because they sound cool walking on concrete!!!! They give you better traction. If you played something other then rec -league slow pitch, you would realize that games and players that are played at a high level need good traction on many different types of surfaces.

Dont bash high school coaches......I am one and I take offense to your biased view of the female ego comment and I am a male coach. Sounds like someone needs a bigger soap box. I applaud the federation for finally making the change. Let me guess....next thing is you will be for madatory face mask for the centerfielder and everyone using wiffle ball bats!!!:mad:

Stick to learning where the strike zone actually is and let the coaches and players deal with equipment issues that helps the athlete perform at a higher level. By the way scrapes and cuts heal a lot faster than pulled muscles or blown ACLs due to slipping or sliding.....

wadeintothem Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:00pm

WHo really cares?

If they allow it they allow it..

Just gotta watch the catchers so they dont damage our own equipment.

Teaching someone how to slide with metal cleats is their problem. 20 girls can get sliced up and twisted ankles because of their stupid rule change and I wont shed a tear until someone runs their spikes over my nice plate shoes.

An umpires gotta feel dumb asking a player to remove her bracelet when she is running around with feet fulls of metal spikes though. Thats funny... but yep, the blues gotta do it.

bkbjones Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:35am

Your honor,
I hereby submit Exhibit A, covering several items but not quite making sense about any of them. The overall failure of the US public school system would be paramount. Secondly, your honor, I believe this is just cause for one of our favorite cliches: "stupid coaches."

Attending a freaking clinic doesn't mean someone knows or doesn't know how to properly teach sliding, slide rule or anything else. I know two high school basketball coaches who, between the two, have won almost 2,000 games. They have freely admitted they are lost when it comes to coaching some aspects of post play.A coach who admits their shortcomings and works to overcome them is worth far more than any grain of salt.

Now, as far as putting down Irishmafia, you have no idea of whom or what you speak. Mike doesn't need me to defend him, but I will wager dollars to donuts he has done more on a national level than you, sir, have done on a local level -- not to mention the work Mike has done on a local and state level.

Finally, NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation. Renton (WA) High School hasn't won 10 games in five years, but there have been about 200 girls who have participated. There are far more Rentons out there than whatever school you claim to coach.

(Oh, and if you would get your butt out there with a rake and make the field a little better, maybe you wouldn't have so many pulls, blown whatevers, et cetera.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
Hey...Irish gangster guy....You say all this knowledge you have comes from first hand experience??? Including coaching...... Well, I think if any coach is worth a grain of salt they need to know how to teach sliding properly. So you are saying that all baseball coaches properly teach sliding? Is that why they get to use them? Maybe you do not know how to teach it but they have clinics for that if you would like to attend. I have had countless girls go on to play in college and they all come back and ask why they could not wear metal cleats in high school. I personally wrote letters to the federation trying to get the rule changed. Needless to say, I think they made the right decision.

You dont see girl basketball players wearing penny loafers do you? No, they play on the same surface that the boys do and they are permitted to wear the same type of shoe because it gives them the best traction. Listen carefully, I will type slow so you can understand me....the rule doesnt state that they HAVE to wear them. It just gives them the option.

There is a reason why high school baseball, college baseball and softball, pro baseball and softball wear them. They dont wear them because they sound cool walking on concrete!!!! They give you better traction. If you played something other then rec -league slow pitch, you would realize that games and players that are played at a high level need good traction on many different types of surfaces.

Dont bash high school coaches......I am one and I take offense to your biased view of the female ego comment and I am a male coach. Sounds like someone needs a bigger soap box. I applaud the federation for finally making the change. Let me guess....next thing is you will be for madatory face mask for the centerfielder and everyone using wiffle ball bats!!!:mad:

Stick to learning where the strike zone actually is and let the coaches and players deal with equipment issues that helps the athlete perform at a higher level. By the way scrapes and cuts heal a lot faster than pulled muscles or blown ACLs due to slipping or sliding.....


azbigdawg Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
Hey...Irish gangster guy....You say all this knowledge you have comes from first hand experience??? Including coaching...... Well, I think if any coach is worth a grain of salt they need to know how to teach sliding properly. So you are saying that all baseball coaches properly teach sliding? Is that why they get to use them? Maybe you do not know how to teach it but they have clinics for that if you would like to attend. I have had countless girls go on to play in college and they all come back and ask why they could not wear metal cleats in high school. I personally wrote letters to the federation trying to get the rule changed. Needless to say, I think they made the right decision.

You dont see girl basketball players wearing penny loafers do you? No, they play on the same surface that the boys do and they are permitted to wear the same type of shoe because it gives them the best traction. Listen carefully, I will type slow so you can understand me....the rule doesnt state that they HAVE to wear them. It just gives them the option.

There is a reason why high school baseball, college baseball and softball, pro baseball and softball wear them. They dont wear them because they sound cool walking on concrete!!!! They give you better traction. If you played something other then rec -league slow pitch, you would realize that games and players that are played at a high level need good traction on many different types of surfaces.

Dont bash high school coaches......I am one and I take offense to your biased view of the female ego comment and I am a male coach. Sounds like someone needs a bigger soap box. I applaud the federation for finally making the change. Let me guess....next thing is you will be for madatory face mask for the centerfielder and everyone using wiffle ball bats!!!:mad:

Stick to learning where the strike zone actually is and let the coaches and players deal with equipment issues that helps the athlete perform at a higher level. By the way scrapes and cuts heal a lot faster than pulled muscles or blown ACLs due to slipping or sliding.....


Deep breath....relax and step back before you step in the shi........ Never mind..too late.....

(I cant believe you said "higher level" when it comes to Fed softball)

Steve M Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by azbigdawg
Deep breath....relax and step back before you step in the shi........ Never mind..too late.....

(I cant believe you said "higher level" when it comes to Fed softball)

Obviously, Darrell, we've got one of those knowledgable high school coaches:D

Bandit Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:43am

That's ok
 
I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Don't think or believe that by this comment that I think there is not a places for the local rec league. I have umpired and coached softball at all levels. At the highschool field and the local park. These is a place and a need for both. There are some that just need to know where the line for both is drawn. My personal opinion is that by bkbjones comment is that he one of those that needs to learn where that line is, or at least where and which fields the different games are being played on.

I just hope I never see any posts about how bad bkbjones last night HS game was or how long it took to get threw the terrible pitching his last nights HS game provided. Because he did indeed state HS ball is about "participation".

Steve M Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:53am

Bandit,
Numerous folks from the Fed rules committee - past, present, and most likely future - have stated that the priorities for high school ball are participation, safety, and then compliance with other sanctioning bodies.
But you're a knowledgable high school coach - so you already knew that BK was absolutely correct in his statement.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Just because that is the way it is in IN, doesn't mean it is that way everywhere. Reasoning commonly offered for not requiring two feet in contact with the PP, participation. Reasoning recently offered for not moving pitching distance to 43', participation.

In some areas, some HS teams couldn't beat an ASA 16U travel team if their life depended on it. Whether you like it or not, HS ball just isn't as competitive in all markets as some would like to believe. There are still areas where HS softball is still nothing more than a token sport to satisfy the Title IX requirements.

Bandit Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:19pm

Let me get this right.....participation is a bad thing and they should not be allowed to play in metal cleats because they are not good enough or they are not coached well enough. Does that sound about right? It is funny to see what you guys think of high school coaches. The ones who are usually teachers (educated) and the ones who donate much of their time to these young people. Your sarcastic remark of "knowledgable" coach is humorous. I find that I usually know more about the rules than most of the umpires I come into contact with. So I guess you are one of those "know it all" umpires:confused:
If you have ever truly played the game then you would know that metal is beeter than anything else for safety and traction. If 14 year old boys can wear them then so should the girls. Pretty simple decision.

Umpires have no bearing on this rule. You are to call the game as the Federation, ASA, whoever tells you to call it. Softball is moving forward. Glad to see sopme people are....

Dakota Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:50pm

You really have a bug up your butt about something, dude.

HS sports IS about participation in many areas with everyone making one team or another - if not varsity, then JV, if not JV, then 10th grade, if not 10th grade, then 9th grade, etc. Fed rules cover them all. No one said it was bad, only that it was a fact of life for HS sports. Sure, you have your large schools who have the ability to pick and choose players, but for every one of those you have 10 smaller schools who pretty much field everyone who tries out.

Several of our members here are teachers, so take your unwarranted prejudice and stuff it somewhere.

Teachers are qualified to teach, not necessarily coach, and I've seen some very fine softball coaches in the HS ranks, but I've also seen some who were apparently there only for the extra dough.

Will metal cleats cause more injuries than they prevent for the typically-coached HS player? Time will tell. You will notice the opinion expressed by some regarding metal cleats was focused on poorly coached players of any age or gender. Face it... many coaches (HS, travel, rec) do a poor job of teaching players to slide properly or to play their defensive positions and are unnecessarily putting these players in danger of getting injured. This gets worse with metal spikes.

Personally, I think the game, players, and coaches will adapt, just as the HS boys have. In the meantime (until they adapt) there will be a few bloody and/or twisted ankles. We'll see how big a deal this becomes.

BTW, coaches do not have an exclusive right to be concerned with player safety. In fact, given the way many of them coach, they have no concern about it at all.

JefferMC Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:57pm

I hear this from a lot of area High School players: "School ball is for fun. Travel ball is serious." Not to say that we don't have a lot of serious HS softball programs around here, but I'd have to say that most of them are not.

If ASA JO, NSA, etc. don't think their players need to have metal cleats to be competitive, I fail to see why NFHS does. My HS coach may now want my DD to buy yet another set of cleats (like she doesn't go through enough already).

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 11, 2007 03:06pm

Being in Indy, I can understand your NFHS prejudice. My comments were not directed to any specific organization, I just disagree with the rule change.

This didn't just pop out of thin air. This possible change has been discussed for a while now and the only reasoning I have ever heard from anyone, but mostly coaches is, "the boys can wear them, why can't the girls." No other reasons or point of emphasis, xxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx.

You might also notice that I didn't defend males wearing them, either. Hell, they've outlawed metal bats in HS ball in some areas, but allow metals spikes. That makes a lot of sense.

All I have done is offer an opinion and basis for it. If you don't like it fine, you don't have to like it. Then again, you have acted in an extremely defensive manner other than when you are attacking someone, but not nearly as much compelling discussion in favor of why they should wear them from you except what I stated above, "because the boys do".

Yeah, I know, you said the players would get better traction. Metal spikes do not provide that much more traction, even in questionable situations. But what would I know. I'm only an umpire discussing rules on an umpire board.:rolleyes:

Rich Wed Jul 11, 2007 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Being in Indy, I can understand your NFHS prejudice. My comments were not directed to any specific organization, I just disagree with the rule change.

This didn't just pop out of thin air. This possible change has been discussed for a while now and the only reasoning I have ever heard from anyone, but mostly coaches is, "the boys can wear them, why can't the girls." No other reasons or point of emphasis, just simple gender-based reasoning.

You might also notice that I didn't defend males wearing them, either. Hell, they've outlawed metal bats in HS ball in some areas, but allow metals spikes. That makes a lot of sense.

All I have done is offer an opinion and basis for it. If you don't like it fine, you don't have to like it. Then again, you have acted in an extremely defensive manner other than when you are attacking someone, but not nearly as much compelling discussion in favor of why they should wear them from you except what I stated above, "because the boys do".

Yeah, I know, you said the players would get better traction. Metal spikes do not provide that much more traction, even in questionable situations. But what would I know. I'm only an umpire discussing rules on an umpire board.:rolleyes:

The NFHS banned metal spikes for a long time in baseball. Eventually they concluded that the increased traction from the metal spikes outweighted the potential danger of them -- that there were more injuries with non-metal.

It's a non-issue, except when F2 gouges your new patent leather plate shoes. Grrr.

bkbjones Wed Jul 11, 2007 05:33pm

Hey Bandit,
You won't see that from me about how bad my game was. There is about an 80% chance that I have two more years left to umpire after this, and about two more years after that to hang around and suck up oxygen tht would otherwise be going to others, so, no, you won't hear me say anything about how crappy my game was alst night.

Now, if you don't believe it's about participation at HS, I invite you to call Mary Stuckhoff. I have her number right here if you need it. How about Diane Kolb, the softball rules committee member from our region. She lives just down the street, I'll take my cordless and you can talk to her, won't cost you a thing.

Too bad your program doesn't want kids to participate. Just because it's about participation doesn't mean it can't be about playing hard and winning.

This is snipped from the bottom of the softball news release. (Bold italics are mine and added so maybe they will slip through.)

"Softball is the fourth-most popular sport among girls at the high school level with 369,094 participants during the 2005-06 season, according to the High School Athletics Participation Survey conducted by the NFHS. It also ranks third in school sponsorship for girls across the nation with 14,710 schools."


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Don't think or believe that by this comment that I think there is not a places for the local rec league. I have umpired and coached softball at all levels. At the highschool field and the local park. These is a place and a need for both. There are some that just need to know where the line for both is drawn. My personal opinion is that by bkbjones comment is that he one of those that needs to learn where that line is, or at least where and which fields the different games are being played on.

I just hope I never see any posts about how bad bkbjones last night HS game was or how long it took to get threw the terrible pitching his last nights HS game provided. Because he did indeed state HS ball is about "participation".


Bandit Wed Jul 11, 2007 08:52pm

Seriously...I can throw around big names out there too, but I wont. I have had communication with STRUCKHOFF as well. I am not impressed. I am defensive because all I have read here is that high school coaches, players and programs, for the most part, are not qualified to wear metal spikes or coach the sport. You guys have stated over and over again that HS softball and the Federation is about participation and not about highly skilled softball. I would say that in our area, those highly skilled travel ball players are also playing high school softball and are probably going on to play college ball. High School ball is not rec ball. I totally agree that HS softball is about participation, but that doesnt mean they should not wear metal spikes. If baseball teams are bad, do they get banned from wearing metal spikes.

I think that it real simple, the players have the opportunity now to wear either metal or non-metal. We play on the same surface as boys and the boys are allowed to wear them becasue they are safer, so why should the girls not be offered the same opportunity. I am happy there are teachers out there too that are involved on the sport. Most of the coaches that I know are continually trying to become better coaches at clinics, just like umps have. I have also been to some of those ump schools. That is for another time!! So, when the post earlier stated sarcastically that "we have another knowledgable coach here" that kind of summed up the oppinion I was feeling. I take a lot of pride in how hard I have worked to be the best coach I can be. Still not there yet, but always working towards it. As I am sure all of you are.

When I stated that this ruling did not invlove the umpires I was stating that it is an equipment rule, not a judgment call, or anything that affects the play on the field or the outcome of the game involving umpires. Just like a bat or helmet. You check them and then play. If metal spikes were so dangerous and deadly, why are we not seeing court cases invloving metal spikes like bats? I understand the bat issue. Lives are in danger with those things.

Just know that there are a lot of coaches out there, travel or HS, that are good and bad. But, that should have no bearing on players wearing metal spikes. You are right, players and coaches will adjust and it will be for the better. Sorry if I came across pissed off...I was. I know how hard my kids have worked and a lot of other girls I have worked with. They should be afforded the same opportunities to push the limits of their abilities safely, just as the boys do. Same type sport, same surface, same equipment....that is all.:)

Also, If you ever saw my field, you would not make the comment about raking!!

Bandit Wed Jul 11, 2007 09:05pm

Torn ACL
 
ACL- Anterior Cruciate Ligament......just for the record.;)

SRW Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:56pm

Wait a minute here. I call bull$h!t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
I can't believe bkbjones stated "NFHS is about participation". Last time I checked most high schools have either if not both: "try-outs" &/or "cuts". Participation rules are for the local "rec" league, they don't "try-out" or have "cuts".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
I totally agree that HS softball is about participation

So you can't believe he stated it, yet you stated it yourself. Ok. Can we say hypocrite?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
Seriously...I can throw around big names out there too, but I wont. I have had communication with STRUCKHOFF as well.

First you won't, then you do? Please, enlighten us as to your "communication" with her. What did she tell you? Was your discussion centered around participation? When did you talk to her?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
You guys have stated over and over again that HS softball and the Federation is about participation and not about highly skilled softball.

Please provide links to those posts where someone/anyone posted that NFHS is "not about highly skilled softball."

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:47pm

Bandit,

Covered NFHS Rule Changes in local association meeting tonight. Majority is still trying to figure out what these people were thinking about with this change.

On the positive side, the association nominated you as a finalist in the Last Comic Standing series. Good luck in your future endeavors.

Bandit Thu Jul 12, 2007 08:54am

"Finally, NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation. Renton (WA) High School hasn't won 10 games in five years, but there have been about 200 girls who have participated. There are far more Rentons out there than whatever school you claim to coach."
-bkbJones


HS softball is about participation. Participation of the highest skilled players in our schools. That is why there are cuts. It is not a free-for-all.

Thanks for the nomination to the comedy club. I am sure I will see a lot of your faces there! All of this is funny and time well wasted. Later!

Bandit Thu Jul 12, 2007 09:01am

Ok, my turn.....
 
About the participation comments and their differences. The original comment about particiaption I believe was made by bkbjones. The comment was taken in the context that participation was all about the fun of participation. I believe in the HS format or context and with the fact that there are indeed try-outs and cuts made in most cases the game is taken a little bit more "seriously" then at the local rec/league level. If this was not the direction or context mr jones was implying I apologize for my misinterpretation. I believe this can be supported up by the differences of the words particpation and participants. One must have cause and/or purpose and the other simply represents numbers or fact. A big difference. Again an opinion of this particular author.

In respoxe to Mr SRW writing in post # 31 in this particular thread: "Please provide links to those posts where someone/anyone posted that NFHS is "not about highly skilled softball." Please refer to the comments of Mr Jones in post # 17 where he writes: " Finally, NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation." I believe while the exact words used may not used (highly skilled vs high level) the context or implication is certainly the same.

Bottom line I believe is certainly been made and that this is a choice the players, parents and coaches are now able to make on an individual basis. And this choice is now the same for both boys and girls.

Where any humor or joking has been made in the previous comments or posts I do not know, so the comment by Irishmafia about being "a finalist in the Last Comic Standing series" is a little confusing. But this is not the first time he's has confused me or others and it probally will not be the last time. In fact I believe if any individual were to ask Mr Irishmafia about some of his comments and what some think of them. They might wish that he would keep some of them more to himself. This of course is no secret as Mr Irishmafia has made that fact known himself thru past threads. But he always makes it interesting to say the least and we can always be sure he will have an opinion. That's probally what keeps me coming back.

One last comment about the cleat topic. What will be interesting to watch is what individual HS's or state HS organizations will choose to possible ignore or change this position at the local or state level.

And finally, whewwwwww, for some clearification and information. At least 2 individuals have been responding to this interesting thread. One from the point of coaching and one from the opionion of an umpire/coach. But as an individual (that would be the umpire/coach) who has had the oppurtunity to visit and participate on some of the finest softball fileds in college softball. One of which is the University of Louisville's softball field. And also the field in which this thread has mentioned, the care and condition of these two fields are comparable beyond anyones possilble belief or comprehension. In short. No raking is needed! Pictures available upon request, right coach?

bkbjones Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:35am

Isn't it amazing how many comedic genuises fail to recognize their genius?!?

Now, as for what I said that has so pi$$ed you off:
NFHS isn't about playing games at "a high level of competition." NFHS is about participation. Renton (WA) High School hasn't won 10 games in five years, but there have been about 200 girls who have participated. There are far more Rentons out there than whatever school you claim to coach.

My wife, who specializes in that sort of thing, points out that I need to be more clear because of the comprehension problem from which you may be suffering (based on the lack of comprehension, misspelling, taking things out of context, et cetera).

Here is an example that you should be able to understand about participation.

For many years, the state of Indiana was renown for having one classification for basketball. It will surprise you to know there was even a movie made about it. It was named "Hoosiers" and even had talking AND was in COLOR. Unbelievable!

Anyway...

Just a couple years ago, that tradition went away. Now they have multiple classifications competing in basketball playoffs competing toward multiple state championships. Why? So more high school student-athletes can participate in the experience.

What a novel concept!

Now, Mr. Nice Bkbjones is going away. At no point did I ever say anything about NFHS not being about skills. Any coach who isn't teaching their players skills is a bull$hit coach. Do you take me for a flaking moron or something?

As for being a namedropper, well, I was talked out of dropping some real names on you. Let's just say that I have met more heads of state than you have capable spelling or grammar teachers. It's been my pleasure to have visited with Mary Struckhoff on more than one occasion. I've known several members of past and present rules committees for several years. I'm proud to count Diane Kolb as a fellow umpire and, more importantly, a very best friend.

In every case, every person I have known on that committee has a passion for making not only a game so the most highly skilled players may succeed, but also making it a level playing field so that as many people participate as possible. Just as there is a place for Woodinville HS, there is a place for Franklin HS. It's my pleasure to know both coaches, the 64 and the 0. the Woodinville coach is also one of my good friends. When we're on the field we're not friends, for he coaches and I umpire. We've also comiserated about things like 64-0 games and how $hitty many members of the (in)human race can be. We've also talked about how nice it is to be able to be out there.

As for your field, I couldn't care less how it looks. You see, I'm out here pretty much on borrowed time as it is. We all are to some extent. Don't over worry about how good your field looks, and don't take any of this game or life for granted. Just being able to be vertical and being on a ball field is more than good enough for this man.

Bandit Fri Jul 13, 2007 07:13am

Not exactly right.
 
mr jones, you are actually incorrect on the following statement, just for the record. "Now they have multiple classifications competing in basketball playoffs competing toward multiple state championships. Why? So more high school student-athletes can participate in the experience." The reasoning behind this move was that larger school districts had a larger source or pool of players in which to choose their team from and the little school districts were tired of getting thier a$$ 's kicked by the bigger schools. That is what made the movie so special. It was the little guy beating up on the big guy. Participation was not in question. Have a nice day.

Dakota Fri Jul 13, 2007 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
mr jones, you are actually incorrect on the following statement, just for the record. "Now they have multiple classifications competing in basketball playoffs competing toward multiple state championships. Why? So more high school student-athletes can participate in the experience." The reasoning behind this move was that larger school districts had a larger source or pool of players in which to choose their team from and the little school districts were tired of getting thier a$$ 's kicked by the bigger schools. That is what made the movie so special. It was the little guy beating up on the big guy. Participation was not in question. Have a nice day.

Let's see... setting up multiple classes so more schools can "make state" or "win state" is not about participation?

OK, if you say so... :rolleyes:

Bandit Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:16am

Yes, that is what I am saying
 
I didn't say it was a smart idea. I'm just saying that having lived in Indiana for 43 of my 44 years that was the reason for the change. Please remember this is the same state that has fought to agree on time zones for a considerable amount of time. :confused:

DeRef Fri Jul 13, 2007 06:14pm

Dumb rule change!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
Bottom line I believe is certainly been made and that this is a choice the players, parents and coaches are now able to make on an individual basis. And this choice is now the same for both boys and girls.

Individual Basis!!! What about the girl who gets spiked by the runner who has chosen to wear the metal spikes. What kind of choice does she get.

This is a dumb change because the people who are wearing the cleats are not the ones likely to get hurt. The defense is out there to fend for themselves when the runner slides with the metal spikes out front.

Steve M Fri Jul 13, 2007 06:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeRef
Individual Basis!!! What about the girl who gets spiked by the runner who has chosen to wear the metal spikes. What kind of choice does she get.

This is a dumb change because the people who are wearing the cleats are not the ones likely to get hurt. The defense is out there to fend for themselves when the runner slides with the metal spikes out front.

Perhaps you should talk to the Fed folks - add a rule that coaches ensure that defensive players are skilled enough to actually play their positions. Watch the coaches whine about that!

Personally, I am not convinced this is a good move - there are far too many scholastic players that are not serious players and these players are not very skilled. I suspect that there will be some injuries - for defensive players who do not know how to properly play their infield positions when players are wearing metal AND for offensive players who are wearing metal without knowing what they need to know about wearing metal. On the other hand, I am not convinced that this is a bad move - let them learn. I suspect there will be more injuries to the offensive players than the defense. But I also have zero statistics.
I know there are some injuries in the college game - where spikes are allowed and expected. There are also injuries with boys and metal spikes in their game. I guess I'll wait and see to determine what my opinion is as to whether this is a good change or not.
I suspect we will see intimidation have a bigger part in the high school softball game. That's not good, nor is it bad, but it is a change.

Bandit Fri Jul 13, 2007 06:59pm

Like I said
 
It a choice. I betting you would choose against this. Have a nice week-end.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 13, 2007 07:07pm

As I posted elsewhere, how long before a player is seen in the dugout with a file sharpening their spikes, and how soon will the other coach complain to the umpire that S/HE has to do something about it?

Steve M Fri Jul 13, 2007 07:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
As I posted elsewhere, how long before a player is seen in the dugout with a file sharpening their spikes, and how soon will the other coach complain to the umpire that S/HE has to do something about it?

Mike,
That's part of the imtimidation I spoke of. I don't know whether that's good or bad - the actual use of "high" spike is and will properly be dealt with by ejection.
Granted, I played HS baseball, but I used to use as much intimidation as I could - it's just another tool to playing the game. I'd sit on the end of the bench, shortly before the game and do something to get attention from the other team WHILE I took off my spikes and made a show of sharpening them. I never spiked anyone, never got tossed, I ate a few pitches, but I seldom got put out on a steal or when I stretched a hit.
Another thing this may lead to is players policing their own games - much as baseball and men's fastpitch did when I played - take a cheap shot, eat a pitch or hard tag.
This rule change may well be a part of changing the "culture" of high school ball. And that may lead to more serious ball with LESS participation. Since Fed is big on participation, regardless of what some butt head sez, I suspect they have not really analyzed this change and what may happen.

DeRef Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:45pm

Some people aren't smart enough to make a "Choice"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit
It a choice. I betting you would choose against this. Have a nice week-end.

So I take it that if I chose to get drunk and run over your family in my car, you will be ok with that. I mean, it was a "choice" that I made. Of course NOT...

That being said, the defense should not be put at risk because the offense choses to wear metal. Only a fool would thank that this was ok.

Bandit Sat Jul 14, 2007 09:35pm

Let's hope we dont see any drunken players on the base paths with sharpened metal spikes then....things could get ugly for a lot of people involved!


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