3rd out on appeal
 

I know this is a dead horse topic, but just for comment. A group of experienced umpires were discussing a play and could not agree on the rule. Although the play happened in a hardball game, the same issue exists in softball. I said it depended on which rule set in softball and I don't care about hardball.

With two outs, a BR overran 1st without touching it. The fielder realized it and tagged the runner as an appeal and the runner was out. Another runner touched HP before the appeal; raising the question of whether that should count as a run or the appeal out counted as a force. As I understand it, for appeals of what would have been a force play or a BR at 1st:

NFHS - no run
PONY - no run
USSSA - not specified
ASA - run counts
NCAA - no runs
others - ???

Even an experienced group of umps had trouble with this and I think the problem is:
- different from book to book
- wording different even when meaning agrees
- not clear without "case book" or POE in most books
- umpires who do both sports
- infrequent occurrence

Any comments?

Maybe I am not reading the OP properly, but I don't understand the fuss.

No run can count when the 3rd out is the B-R being put out before reaching 1B. Your B-R missed 1B, and was put out before touching 1B. End of discussion.

Forget the word force, that applies to other runners that are forced by the action of the B-R.

WMB

I do understand the fuss. . .because I once thought that all appeals for missing a base were automatically timing plays. But thanks to this board, I was corrected on this.

Yeah, I'll comment. In ASA, the run does not count if the 3rd out was the result of a force out or the batter-runner being put out at 1B.

I'm not counting this run in ASA, either - or any other sanctioning body's game, for that matter.

And now, I see Mike replied - so I'll take that as ASA's position.

Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.

or any other sanctioning body's game, for that matter.

OBR has some odd wrinkles on missed bases that are forces. For example: 2 out, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B running on the pitch. Charles grounds to F6, whose throw to F4 is too late to get Baker at 2B. Abel scores. However, Charles slides by the base without touching it and is tagged out trying to return. Ruling: Charles is out, but Abel's run counts. The defense cannot then appeal Baker's miss of 2B. So if you were talking to a bunch of hardball umpires, I'm not surprised there was disagreement.

I am not sure whether OBR would extend those wrinkles to plays at 1B, since OBR treats 1B differently—it's technically not a force. ASA treats the out at 1B as a force, and considers the batter to have "occupied" home.

Note that in ASA, if the BR was not out on appeal but was instead thrown out at 2B for the third out, the defense could not then appeal at 1B and get an advantageous fourth out. In NCAA, and I assume Fed, the defense could get the advantageous fourth out on the BR.

Wait a minute, part of your play was not an appeal.
"OBR has some odd wrinkles on missed bases that are forces. For example: 2 out, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B running on the pitch. Charles grounds to F6, whose throw to F4 is too late to get Baker at 2B. Abel scores. However, Charles slides by the base without touching it and is tagged out trying to return. Ruling: Charles is out, but Abel's run counts. The defense cannot then appeal Baker's miss of 2B. So if you were talking to a bunch of hardball umpires, I'm not surprised there was disagreement."

Charles' sliding by the base and being tagged while trying to return to the base is identical in baseball & softball - that's a timing play and Abel's run will count in any softball sanctioning body I know about, along with any baseball sanctioning body I know about. That is not a missed base appeal.
In your play, your missed base appeal is a 4th out appeal. Some sanctioning bodies will accept this specific appeal while others will not - since Charles' run is not the run you want to take off the board.

Charles' sliding by the base and being tagged while trying to return to the base is identical in baseball & softball - that's a timing play and Abel's run will count in any softball sanctioning body I know about, along with any baseball sanctioning body I know about. That is not a missed base appeal.

In ASA, it is a missed base appeal if the fielder makes it so. ASA allows an immediate appeal of a missed base even if the runner is in the vicinity of the base. OBR does not.

In your play, your missed base appeal is a 4th out appeal. Some sanctioning bodies will accept this specific appeal while others will not

ASA is the only code I know of that won't allow that 4th out appeal (it's because the runner didn't score), and that's only since last year. But of course there may be others.

ASA case play 5.5.7

(FP only) With 2 outs, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, B5 strikes out, but the ball gets by F2. R1 scores and R2 is out of the plate. B3 failed to run to 1B and F2, after tagging R2, throws to F3 for the fourth out. Does the runner score? RULING: R1's run is not nullified. A "fourth out" appeal to nullify a run must be on the runner who has scored. (5-5C)

In the exact same case play 2 years ago, the run WAS nullified. However, ASA for some reason changed the rule, and as far as I know ASA stands alone in this ruling.

But as I think about this play, is the fourth out at 1B actually an appeal? This is not a missed base or a base left too soon. This is a base never reached. Whether somebody was put out for the third out or not, this is simply the batter-runner before reaching 1B. (But the case play makes it clear that ASA sees it another way.)

As a BU, I won't even make a call (safe or out) in this situation (there's no call to make). Hopefully the defensive player will do the right thing and either tag the bag or the runner. This will result in an out, and no run scored.

How the situation described resulted in a dead ball appeal is the real question at hand...

Speaking ASA, your mechanic, or lack of one as the case may be, is incorrect.

By rule, the runner who has passed a base is considered to have touched that base for the purpose of the application of the rules. Therefore, by making no call, you are failing to meet your responsibilities as an umpire.

But you do not make a call when there is no defensive play made at that base. I don't call the B/R safe at 1B when he hits a line shot to left field do I?

Of course not. And if the runner misses a base you say nothing until properly appealed.

BUT - if you have a play at a base (including home) you must make a call. Right? Either safe or out. So if the runner beats the throw, or the tag is missed your call has to be safe. In fact, by rule the runner is assumed to have touched the base when they pass it, until a proper appeal is made.

You may hesitate a just a bit to see if the players recognize the error and fix it themselves (runner tags base or fielder tags runner) before making the call. But anything more than that, your failure to make a call is sending a signal to the players that something is wrong. And that makes you wrong, because you are not supposed to react to a missed base until an appeal is made.

It is simple. Call the runner safe, and let the players figure it out.

WMB

I don't know what you are reading, but it certainly isn't the original post of this thread.

Thanks.

The wording in 5.5.B.1 misled me.
"On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred. "

Exactly, which is why I asked for comment on the apparent reasons.

And apparently I was misled by the ASA wording.

That is correct. If a runner was forced to a base and missed it, it only remains a force if no following runner was retired prior to the appeal. If the forced runner missed 2B, but the BR was retired prior to an appeal at 2B, it is no longer a force since a succeeding runner has been retired. That makes it a timing play.

On a play at first, the BR who passes the base prior to the throw arriving, therefore is considered to have touched the base, but is still susceptable to be retired on a live ball appeal. If the BR is successfully appealed, s/he never reached 1B safely which means no runs may score on that play.

Maybe I'm just seeing things. :confused:

I wasn't entirely clean on my points. In the OP, the runner is out. Piece of cake.

If a runner misses the 1B bag and the defensive player tags him, it's not an appeal play because I will not have called him safe. He didn't touch the base, the defensive player realized this, and continued the effort of making the defensive play.

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

Too bad that's what I was taught at 3 different clinics this year...

Again, you don't call him safe if there is no defensive play made (and if you do, please show me the appropriate rules, because I haven't read/noticed it). Just like we've (we've - meaning my association) been taught not to call safe/out if the ball is dropped at 1B by the defender on an attempted defensive play (so long as the defensive player doesn't recover before the B/R gets there, that is). If your UIC/region is teaching something different than what mine is, then the problem does not lie with me, but rather the training.

That's been my entire point of this particular sub-matter. Either you call every runner that passes/touches 1B safe (even if they hit an inside the park HR or an OTF HR), or you don't call anything at all since there has not been a defensive play yet made to either the 1B bag or the batter/runner. I used the example of a line drive to LF for just this purpose (although I may have clouded you guys thoughts because you thought I was referring to the OP).

Am I still confusing you?

If the BR misses 1B, overruns the bag, and doesn't make some sort of move toward 2B, it's obvious that a subsequent tag is an appeal of the miss. (If the BR both misses 1B and makes a turn, then the fielder must be clear about why he is tagging the BR, because the effect on the run scoring is different.) And if a runner misses home, a tag attempt after the runner has passed the plate is also obviously an appeal. This holds both in ASA and in OBR.

It's different at 2B and 3B, where the tag is of the runner simply being off the base unless the fielder clearly makes an appeal. And OBR and ASA treat that play differently. ASA allows an immediate appeal even while the runner is in the vicinity; OBR does not. (In ASA, if the BR missed 1B, overran, and is returning, F3 could appeal by tagging the base. In OBR, F3 would have to tag the BR to appeal.)

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles grounds to F6. Abel scores. F6 throws too late to 2B but Baker has missed 2B and slid beyond it. Now:

1. F4 immediately appeals the miss and tags Baker. ASA: Third out on appeal, run nullified on third-out force play. OBR: No immediate appeal permitted, since Baker is in the vicinity of the base. Therefore, Baker out merely on the tag, and Abel's run counts. No fourth-out appeal permitted, either.

2. F4 merely tags Baker beyond the base. ASA: Three outs. Run scores. No fourth-out appeal allowed on the missed base, since Baker did not score. OBR: Three outs. No fourth-out appeal permitted. Run scores.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

In baseball, I call the runner safe if he beats the throw but misses 1B. Same at home. That seems to be what the other umps do also. A no-call is an announcement to the entire ballpark that the runner missed the base.

Am I still confusing you?

Yes. Are you saying that you would make a no-call on a BR who beats the throw but misses 1B?

Did the defensive player receive the ball and have his/her foot on the bag? If so, then yes, that play would require a call to be made. If no defensive play is made/attempted, how can I call the B/R safe?

Where in the 2007 ASA rulebook does it say that I must call the B/R safe if the B/R beats the ball out to 1B but never touches the bag? It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all if I am forced by ASA rule to make an incorrect call, and then upon the ensuing appeal reverse myself even though I knew the initial ruling was incorrect.

Clarify "fielder", please. Are you referring to F3 receiving the throw at 1B?

Wow, how arrogant.

If the BR touches the base, you call the BR safe. If the BR misses the base, the BR is considered to have touched it. You hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play. If no play is made, you declare the BR safe. If they appeal properly, you call them out. You do it this way so you don't tip off either team that the play may not be over. Also, they're assumed safe until put out. If the proper appeal is not made, the BR is safe.

And where is all this? You're right, it's not in the rulebook. It's in the Umpire Manual. Perhaps the most needed, and least read portion of the entire book.

Way to a$$ume that by saying "2007 ASA rulebook" you thought I had somehow completely forgotten/neglected/blown off the part about the umpires manual (which is also inclusive). I guess it's my fault for a$$uming that every umpire/person on this discussion board actually knows that this book can be referred to in several ways/manners other than the exact and singular description for which you have developed for said published material.

You do not call the B/R safe if they touch the base and no defensive play is being made. I know this is a difficult concept to grasp for you over signaling types, but it's not in the "2007 ASA Official Rules of Softball, Umpire Edition (which includes the Umpire Manual). The fact of the matter is neither the book nor my training has led me to this practice nor anyone else in my association. I do not follow the B/R around the bases during an inside the park HR, signalling safe at 1B, 2B, 3B and HP as the B/R touches each applicable base. If you do, you're doing something seriously wrong. I don't care if it's just 1B and you're calling that...you're WRONG!

I call to your attention page 241 in the 2007 ASA Rules/regs/Umpire's manual/whatevertheheckyouwanttocallitbook, which states (under the helpful hints for base umpires section);

6. Don't make a call until the catch or play is completed
(the play is not completed until either the runner touches the 1B bag, or until the defensive players completes their play attempt against the B/R).

12. A 'safe' signal or verbal call is not necessary when the thrown ball gets by the defensive player
(or in the case I keep talking about, either never gets to defensive player F3 in the first place or gets to F3 late and he's off the bag. If F3 is on the bag, that's an out plain as day.)

Now, in the rules supplement on page 133 of the afore mentioned "book", it does state;

1. Appeals

L. Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. When a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed. On appeals involving the double base, when the batter-runner touches the white rather than the colored portion and a play is made, the same procedure applies. When an appeal is made in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live.


No where does it state that I "must" signal the runner safe.

I totally agree. My post referred to a play being made, not just a missed base and then three years later something else happens.
Good. Doing so would not be correct.
Blah Blah... not relevant.

I can't find the wording as such in the '07 Regs. Would you please cite the rule or page number where we are instructed to do so so (that I may "correct" my mechanics)?

I agree with your statement, but without supporting documentation, I can not agree with your assessment of the particular situation I keep describing.

That's because I paraphrased.
Sure. Start reading on page 188. You can stop on page 264.

And you call me arrogant. :rolleyes:

I'll give you a hint...it's not going to be on any of those pages you listed.

OK, so the wording which misled me is about determining if a non-BR force is still in effect, so an appeal of a missed 1st base is treated as BR put out before 1st.

Which mean that in all the rule sets that I listed in the OP as having a rule, the "run" does not count.

Generally yes, but would it matter if F4, F1, F9, etal were covering the base or perhaps retrieved the ball (thrown or loose) to make the appeal tag?

Originally Posted by Steve M
Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.
My OP asked for comments on the why of the uncertainty, including my misled reading of the ASA rule, even when knowing it should be "no run" in my other sanctions. That's what I wanted to discuss, not what the rule is and not mechanics. Partly because there are a number of rules like this and understanding why they are hard to get should help with learning. My list is down to:
- wording different even when meaning agrees
- not clear without "case book" or POE in some books
- umpires who do both sports
- infrequent occurrence

No, it would not have as long as the person to which you are referring is that whom is covering 1B at the time of the play.

Thank you.

Original scenario in question:

It has been clarified that the "fielder" was the player who received the throw at 1B in an attempt to retire the BR.

This is a rules supplement, not a mechanic. It does however show that in the OP the BR was considered to have touched the base by rule (8.3.B) which means the BR is not out in accordance with 8.2.B.

"Must", no it doesn't say "must". However, the proper mechanic is as follow:

Now that the rules have deteremined that this runner is safe, the mechanic as noted on page 228 of the Umpire Manual states: The base umpire indicates decisions through simultaneous verbal and visual signals. Umpires signal SAFE when a runner has beaten a play. They punctuate a vigorous SAFE signal with a verbal SAFE call.

Please note that it reads "beaten the play", not "is safe in the absolute".

ASA, and many of the other softball rule sets, consider an appeal for a missed base a separate play and not a continuation.

On any play like this the umpire should hesitate to make sure s/he got the full picture of the play and then make the call. The manual also states is should be a hesitation, not a delay. Even on a similar situation at home, the mechanic calls for a hesitation and if the catcher does not make a tag on the play, to call the runner safe.

I'm done with this one.

I understand this completely, but it is not correct for my sub-topic/spinoff. That particular instance has yet to be answered by anyone here, and the best advice I get from my fellow brothers in blue/grey is "Sure. Start reading on page 188. You can stop on page 264." Too bad there is no specific answer in those pages which would satisfy my situation.

Again, the situation I am speaking of is as follows:

B/R hits a sharp ground ball deep in the hole in the vicinity of F6. F6 fields the ball cleanly, but does not attempt to make a throw to F3 at 1B. The B/R does not actually touch the 1B bag, but passes it. Since there is no defensive play being made on this B/R at 1B by F3 or any other defensive positional player, am I required by rule, instruction, mechanic, supplement/whatever to signal and verbally call this runner safe?

Again, please understand that I am talking about my specific (above mentioned) sub-topic/spinoff, and not the OP specific situation. Can anyone here answer this very simple question?


For the record, this is how my entire association has been trained (in the specific instance I am speaking about - no call, even if the B/R misses the 1B bag if there is no play being made upon him/1B bag at the time of the B/R missing 1B, but passing it).

With the play described by JPRempe, I have no call unless an infielder appeals the missed bag before the runner returns to the bag. No signal, no verbal call, no wink to the runner, no double-fist pump. This is no different from if he hit the ball to the outfield and got an in-the-park home run, but missed 1B.

This is different then an in the park home run with first base missed, in that this must be a live ball appeal as compared to a dead ball appeal. No play no call.

My point was what you do in the case of a missed bag. Until they appeal at the proper time, there's no call. That's all I was getting at. :)

B/R hits a sharp ground ball deep in the hole in the vicinity of F6. F6 fields the ball cleanly, but does not attempt to make a throw to F3 at 1B. The B/R does not actually touch the 1B bag, but passes it. Since there is no defensive play being made on this B/R at 1B by F3 or any other defensive positional player, am I required by rule, instruction, mechanic, supplement/whatever to signal and verbally call this runner safe?

No!