How would you call these two plays?
 

I realize that I have been calling the following plays differently. Would you call the batter out on either or both of these plays?

1. Right-handed batter bunts the ball in front of the plate. With her first step toward 1B, she unintentionally kicks the ball. Her other foot is still in the box.

2. Right-handed batter bunts. She has one foot in fair territory and the other still in the box when the ball bounces up and hits her in the chest in fair territory.

In ASA, no. A batted ball that makes contact with a batter while they are still in the box (and one foot counts) results in a foul ball. The R/S on this one says (paraphrasing), "if it doubt on whether or not they're still in the box, call it foul."

Even if the ball is in fair territory, and hits the batter's part of the body in fair territory?

Bob

yes - lengthened

In fair territory, foul territory, uncharted territory, even the Yukon Territory... If they're in the box and it hits the batter, it's a foul ball. :)

In #1, OUT. The player contacted the ball.

In #2, OUT. Assuming that the ball contacts the batter-runner outside the box, the player has a responsibility not to get hit by the batted ball. If the ball & contact is within the box, I've got a FOUL.

Steve, what rule book are you going by? In ASA, this is not the case. Not sure what other rule books say... :)

I think you'd better go back and re-read what happened, where it happened, and what the books say.
In play 1, the ball did not hit or contact the runner, the runner kicked the ball and the ball is out of the box.
For play 2, look at what I said earlier.

I should have specified ASA.

From the definition of foul ball: A batted ball that touches the batter or the bat in the batter's hand(s) a second time while the batter is in the batter's box.

8-2-F-4 Batter-runner is out when the batter-runner interferes with [sic] by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base.

So I guess it hinges on how "in the batter's box" is defined.

I have been calling play #1 an out and play #2 a foul. It seemed to me that running into the ball in fair territory was an out, but "ball hits batter" while she still has a foot in the box was a foul. Now it may be that in some of these play #2 cases the ball was actually in the box while the BR's foot was out of the box, or it was close enough that a foul call was what everybody expected. But I have to admit to myself that I have been inconsistent, since in theory play 1 and play 2 are two versions of the same thing.

A strict reading of the book would indicate that in both cases, the BR is out. In play number 2, however, the benefit any doubt would go to the batter. This play is so common in FP; they bunt and then run into the ball, with the exact placement of their feet not quite clear. I guess play #2 is a default foul unless you're certain.

I certainly appreciate the input.

NO.


Rule 1, Fair Ball

C ....when over fair territory, toches the person, attached equipment, or clothing of a player or an umpire.

D....while over fair territory a runner interferes with a defensive player attempting to filed a batted ball.


Just as a fielder can not make a foul ball fair by touching it over foul ground, a batter/runner cannot make a fair ball foul if any part of his body, clothing, or bat, etc, touches the ball in fair territory just because part of his body is in the batters box.

Fair or foul is determined by the position of the ball, nothing else.

Having a foot in the batter's box is irrelevant.

In the OP, the proper call is out in both scenarios.

GREYMULE
A strict reading of the book would indicate that in both cases, the BR is out.

Strict? Rule One C and D leave no room for an interpretation.

The batter's box offers no batter protection from being called out for touching a ball in fair territory.

In play number 2, however, the benefit any doubt would go to the batter. This play is so common in FP; they bunt and then run into the ball, with the exact placement of their feet not quite clear. I guess play #2 is a default foul unless you're certain.

Either the ball is fair or foul. What benefit of doubt is there? The decision has nothing to do with the batter's feet,,,,,it has all to do with the position of the ball. If the only portion of the batter in fair territory was the tip of his cap and a fair ball hits it, the batter is out.

Maybe you should check out Page 222 of the Umpire's Manual.

Also, Caseplay 7.4-9 and Rule 7.4.H

A batter hit by a fair ball cannot be in the batter's box.

A batter hit by a fair ball cannot be in the batter's box.

True—because even if the ball is over fair territory when it contacts the batter, if the batter is in the box, it's a foul ball.

I've seen that one countless times.

What does that have to do with the citations? Nothing. And, CP 7.4-9 with R 7.4.H would contradict your contention that the feet have nothing to do with it.

Edited to withdraw statement.

If you saw that one numerous times then it was wrong numerous times.

The batter's box offers no protection to a batter hit in fair territory by his own batted ball.

The only call, by rule, is out.

Ummmm
Isnt part of the batters box in fair territory
So with some posts If both feet are in the batters box but the ball is in fair territory then we have an out ?
I dont think so .
ISF
Batter is only out if 1 foot is totally out of the box and on the ground .
So obvious to call because you have to be 110% sure , otherwise , foul ball ,

Rule 7-4-h pertains to a batted ball which hits the batter directly off the bat while the batter is in the batters's box. Case book 7.4.9 pertains to the same play.

The OP pertained to a batted ball which landed in fair territory and was touched in fair territory by the batter/runner. In both cases of the OP the ball was batted into fair territory by the batter who was then struck by the fair ball. In both cases the batter is out.

There is no such caveat in the rule.

You might want to note at this point that I have yet to offer an opinion on out or foul. The rules clearly state that a batter which is hit by a batted ball still in the batter's box is called a strike, not an out. The position of the ball (over fair or foul territory) is not relevant.

That rule is a direct contradiction to your contention that "the batter's box offers no batter protection from being called out for touching a ball in fair territory".

You can spin my comments any way you want.

But the OP pertains to a batted ball hitting the ground. There is no "batter's box" protection in either of the examples in the OP if any part of the batter touches the ball while the ball is in fair territory.

CP 7.4-9 with R 7.4.H have no bearing on the situations in the OP.
RE: your comment:
You might want to note at this point that I have yet to offer an opinion on out or foul.

The OP asked for an answer on that question.

Are you going to give one?

jimpiano, how would you call this play?:

Batter squares to bunt and, with both feet on the ground in the batter's box, positions the bat out over the plate. The batter bunts a low pitch straight down, and the ball strikes the plate, bounces up, and hits the batter's hand as she grips the bat over fair territory. The batter's feet were both clearly in the box, and the ball was in fair territory when it hit the batter's hand.

I didn't spin ****. I cited and addressed your comments, not the OP.And this is the drivil to which I am referring. If the ball hits the ground and than the batter prior to leaving the batter's box, BY RULE, it is declared a foul ball. Any other ruling is just plain wrong.

BTW, #1 is an out call. BR contacted the batted ball outside of the batter's box.

#2 does not provide enough specific information. A batter's foot can be in fair territory and the batter's box at the same time and, by rule, that makes a difference in the call.

#2 does not provide enough specific information. A batter's foot can be in fair territory and the batter's box at the same time and, by rule, that makes a difference in the call.

From the OP: 2. Right-handed batter bunts. She has one foot in fair territory and the other still in the box when the ball bounces up and hits her in the chest in fair territory.

I thought the italicized part would indicate that the foot in fair territory was out of the box, but it is ambiguous. I envisioned the foot out of the box.

Both my plays are outs, which is what I figured they had to be, even though I have been giving too much "benefit of the doubt" to the batter in #2.

However, the batter can certainly contact a ball in fair territory and still have both feet in the box (see the bunt play above). And that's a foul ball.

My responses were all directed to your original OP.

Both calls are out and made by rule of what constitutes a fair batted ball.

That was the original question and Greymule made the proper calls.

So it seems to me that if they want us to call a foul ball, it would be better defined as a hit ball that immediately hits any part of the batter's person. Otherwise, it's possible for a batter to hit the ball, take a step, and contact the ball while both feet are in the box.

Keep in mind that years ago in MLB, a batter standing forward in the box was technically out if he hit a ball down off his front foot while he stood in the batter's box. The foot was in fair territory, and the rule book made no exception for the box. However, the umpires always called that a foul, so MLB redefined the rule to make it consistent with what all the umpires called anyway.