Its about time for ASA to drop the "both feet" on rubber requirement
 

You know, some times you gotta go with the flow.. and with ASA being about the sole association of significance requiring this - and ONLY for the females.. they gotta let it go.

This weekend I called it many times.. I could have called it many more. The girls are fresh out of HS ball - and they just are no longer used to it.

ASA would do well to go ahead and drop it for 08 IMO. The girls play HS ball.. its allowed.. then they play ASA .. not allowed.. then they move to NCAA.. allowed.

Thats insanity IMO. I'd like to hear some good arguments for keeping this now defunct rule for ASA.

You are starting off with a false premise. NFHS is, in fact, in the minority, not ASA; and is even considering joining the mainstream (according to a focus group study in which I am a participant). The NCAA rule as printed requires both feet; in fact, merely touching isn't sufficient, the pivot foot must start covering at least half of the pitching plate, and the stride foot must be in contact.

What alphabet soup rulesets do you know allow only one foot? Just because NFHS and some lesser (in softball) associations are willing to weaken the standard pitching rule out of fear that certain areas can't compete certainly isn't a reason.

By the same weakened argument, girls playing basketball in high school should be shooting at a lowered basket, and from a shorter foul line, because in some areas, they cannot play the game as intended college or in the WNBA.

By the same weakened argument, then when is ASA going to allow the same pitching rules for males as for females?

HA! What a bunch of schmucks.

Thanks.

I should have researched NCAA ruleset on my own. (I dont work NCAA ball)

This thread stems from a convo a bunch of umps were having and the alleged NCAA guys stated exactly the opposite and convinced me ASA was wrong. In fact they were stating leagues i've barely heard of (utrip (sic??) for one) and everyone switching, leaving ASA behind.

If its only NFHS, then ASA is correct.

Thanks steve.

In fact, it started because I was calling it pretty rough.. even once with bases loaded.. this is ASA 18G. It ticks me off they got to me.

I try not to compare things to USSSA anymore. When I used to call U-trip 12? years ago (back when it was still United States Slo-Pitch Softball Association), it used to be very similar to ASA. The wording was different in the rules, but the effects of the rules were relatively identical with some minor exceptions. Now that they've expanded to cover just about every sport short of curling, they've also let a lot of things go in their softball rules. From all reports I've heard, it looks more like a circus act than a ball game.

In my humble opinion, if you hear someone starting to compare USSSA to ASA, take it with a grain of salt. :)

Sorry if this bugs any USSSA umps out there (though I haven't seen that alphabet soup in anyone's signature here as of yet), but that's just what I'm hearing both from other umps, players and coaches.

Well, I didnt really give a crap about those leagues.. but if NFHS and NCAA were allowing it.. and ASA allows it for their male players, I saw no reason to keep disallowing it. If NCAA doesnt allow it, then it would be lame for ASA to switch.

OK. Here is one. At the NFHS meeting coming up in a couple weeks in Indianapolis, one of the rule changes to be considered is both feet on the rubber.

And, insanity is far worse than this. Trust me.

From my Federation contacts, the purpose of allowing the non-pivot foot to be behind the PITCHER'S PLATE was for participation purposes. Apparently, it is easier to pitch without the two-foot restriction and as we all know, not every school has a good pitcher from the start.

There's not only ASA, USSSA, NCAA
 

Maybe it's unimportant for people in the USA, but the rest of the world is playing softball on ISF ruleset bases. And ISF Rulebook requires BOTH FEET in contact with the pitcher's plate...

There is more softball all around the world than you imagine! :D

Ciao

Well when the rest of the world stops running from the USA in softball, it goes back into the olympics, etc - I'll consider them.

Teams that couldn't shoot straight
 

Apparently you haven't seen the Monarchs boxscore from last nights game..:eek:

I really don't know your sources, but I would venture to say that they, and you, are sadly misinformed. USSSA FP has really grown over the past half dozen years or so, and its rules are very closely in line with those of NFHS. Around here, some of the most competetive teams are playing USSSA tournaments. It resembles nothing like "a circus." Oh, and not all umpires include the groups they work in their signatures. Some just place them in their profiles.

Actually, the sources to which I was referring were referring to SP, and by all accounts, they're accurate. This is a FP thread, and my only reason for bringing up USSSA was that just because one rule book in particular decides to bend rules doesn't mean it's for the best.

I'll fall back to a statement I made a number of threads ago - players will rise to the level of (reasonable) expectations. Two feet on the PP does not sound unreasonable to me, and pitchers have been doing it (and doing it well) for years.

Here in AZ, the switching back an forth is not an issue. Most of the pitchers play far more ball under "both feet on the PP" rulesets than they do under HS rules. So most of our HS pitchers start with both feet on the PP anyway.

If we see a pitcher in HS stepping back, it's most likely she doesn't play much other than HS ball.

Just for fun:
Current: NFHS, NCAA, PONY, USSSA, ASA, MPSSAA, DIAA (aka DSSAA), DSUA, UUA, HARSOA, NASO
Past: DSOA, DSRA, USSF, IAABO, BBOA, NNLL
Almost: NSA (clinic - no games accepted)
:D

Thanks Andy, your post allows me to just say:

Ditto here in MN.

I'll bring the crackers, Cecil!

I love it every time this argument is raised and all the NFHS bashers have a field day. Ie.,

"NFHS and some lesser (in softball) associations are willing to weaken the standard pitching rule out of fear that certain areas can't compete,” or –

"the purpose of allowing the non-pivot foot to be behind the PITCHER'S PLATE was for participation purposes. Apparently, it is easier to pitch without the two-foot restriction and as we all know, not every school has a good pitcher from the start."

What bull crap! Lesser associations? Weaken the standard? No good pitchers available? Then please tell me why ASA men have been allowed to “weaken your standard?” Why do the most powerful and fastest FP pitchers in this country need that “additional help?

BTW – what happens to the ASA men when they get into international competition? Are they just like a H.S. or L.L. female pitcher that has to change for the tournament, and then goes back to the old way?


So how did we get to this point?

Originally, and for over fifty years, ASA required both feet in contact with the plate, and the pivot foot could not leave the plate until the stride foot landed (drag was not legal then). Because NFHS followed ASA, the NFHS pitching rules were the same.

In about 1985 ASA changed and allowed pitchers (male and female) to step back. NFHS followed and changed its rules.

About 1990 ASA changed back to its old rules for females only; men were still allowed to step back. NFHS did NOT follow that change. Why – I don’t know. Maybe they disagreed with ASA. Maybe they decided not to restrict their pitchers.

Prior to writing their own rulebook a few years ago, the NCAA used ASA rules. So they simply copied over the ASA Female/JO rule set to their new book. However, L.L. never changed; and USSSA and PONY basically follow NFHS rules so they haven’t changed.


“If we see a pitcher in HS stepping back, it's most likely she doesn't play much other than HS ball."

<O:pI’ve watch several Senior L.L. girls capture the World Series pitching with step-back. At least one of those teams would have whipped any comparable age-group national class ASA team.

So who has been inconsistent? Who keeps changing their pitching rules? Who allowed men (only) to legally leap (in 1992)? Who stopped men from stepping back in 1999, and then reversed direction again one year later? Who took away the leap in 2000? And allowed it back (“toe down rule) in 2005?

You may find it positive, or negative – but both NFHS and L.L. normally take years to change their rule sets. I suggest that careful and lengthy deliberation beats bowing to pressure groups frequently.

OK, I am off my soapbox. Fire away!


WMB

Sorry, Forrest, but this is what I have been told by Federation folks for a few years now when questioning this exact position

Maybe opposite to your area and beliefs, but in some areas, HS ball is barely a step above recreational ball. Many teams couldn't play at the ASA "B" level if their lives depended on it. WMB, it's about time that you just accepted that without the geographical freedom other organizations enjoy, Fed ball just doesn't stand up against good 16U-18U ball games no matter what their association.

Strawman argument. We are discussing 16-18 yo women. What does the men's game have to do with it?

If you must have an answer, it is simple. ASA, and most likely other organizations, adjust their rules for the purpose of competing with ISC. Life in the big city, deal with it, many others in this country do.

Quote:

BTW – what happens to the ASA men when they get into international competition? Are they just like a H.S. or L.L. female pitcher that has to change for the tournament, and then goes back to the old way?

Yep, which is one reason ASA and ISC have created a developmental program for pitchers in the men's program.

Yet the big question is from where did this pitcher emerge? It is not unlikely that, in spite of LL rules, a pitcher of variable experiences was recruited to play for this LL team. And no, not on a high horse, it happens.

Quote:

So who has been inconsistent? Who keeps changing their pitching rules? Who allowed men (only) to legally leap (in 1992)? Who stopped men from stepping back in 1999, and then reversed direction again one year later? Who took away the leap in 2000? And allowed it back (“toe down rule) in 2005?

ASA, and I can only assume other bodies, makes no bones about the fact that sometimes rules are put into place that just do not work for the game. Maybe that's because they do not sit back and wait for the smoke in the back room to clear while a small group of individuals decide how their game of softball should be played. God forbid a mistake is recognized and corrected within a year's time. Maybe others should take note of the lack of an ivy-covered tower mentality.

And since you want to play the LL card, let's go all the way. IMO, there are only two reasons LL even supports what they call a softball program. Give the organization (1) a place to direct female players interested in playing baseball while (2) still keeping the family money within the organization. BTW, Williamsport shouldn't feel singled out by my opinion as Babe Ruth and a few other baseball-oriented organization are, IMO, operating under the same guise.

Opinions are nice, but let's deal with facts.
Fact: ASA required both feet on plate.
Fact: NFHS followed ASA in its earliest book ('70's) and required both feet on plate.
Fact: ASA changed to allow step back (there was no separte male/female rules then).
Fact: NFHS followed ASA and changed to allow step back.
Fact: ASA changed rules for females only.
Fact: NFHS did not follow ASA this time.

So ask your contact if there were in the NFHS meeting 27 years ago when the ASA rule change was discussed and see what the reason for the NFHS position was at that time.

Quote:

Maybe opposite to your area and beliefs, but in some areas, HS ball is barely a step above recreational ball. Many teams couldn't play at the ASA "B" level if their lives depended on it. WMB, it's about time that you just accepted that without the geographical freedom other organizations enjoy, Fed ball just doesn't stand up against good 16U-18U ball games no matter what their association.

My definition of "Rec League" is local community programs (L.L. or local organizations) where the parents pay their money and every little Johnny and Suzy gets to play - and the caliber of play is terrible. (I know; I am coaching a 12U boys team now!) Obviously no comparison to H.S. teams that are competitive, and often cut to get down to team size.

Travel Ball is another story. All-Star type teams; the best players from where ever; usually try-outs are required. I know of girls that travel 100 miles to play; I used to drive my granddaughter 70 mi (she didn't make the teams in our area); one top player from my town is playing with a team from CA! Obviously, no comparison of these teams to H.S. teams.

The argument express in this thread is that the step-back method is for inferior players than cannot match the ASA standard! So why do ASA men need the step-back? Are they inferior?

Typo in my original post; I should have typed L.L. Big League Softball (instead of Senior League). Around here there usually is a single team per L.L. District, put together soley for tournament action. Our coach can recruit the best girls from about a hundred high schools. Plus they can go outside the District if there is no adjoining District. Those L.L. teams are good. One young lady I know only lost 3 or 4 games in 4 years pitching varsity ball, plus she led her team to a State Championship. But she wasn't good enough to pitch on the last L.L. World Series champion from this area. (But she did pitch on several travel teams over the years that reached high levels of national competition.)

Mike - I pitched men's fastpitch for years; I umpired men's FP in upto last year. Men are spoiled when it comes to pitching. There are several parks within 30 miles of GR that support men's FP; all the umpires are told in no uncertain teams not to call IP's. ASA give's men's fastpitch what they want, including step back and making the leap legal. That is the rulebook, and at the local level we are told not to call anything. I don't think that ASA has the guts to stand up to the male FP players.

WMB

So what? I'm not talking about 27 years ago, nor do I care. I'm talking about now. Just because one changed and the other did not is irrelevant to the issue.

Not all schools have a girl who can pitch at the travel ball level. I have been told (because I never had the skill to pitch in the FP game), that requiring just one foot to be in contact with the plate made it easier for some to adjust and learn to pitch or at least get it near the plate. Let me tell you, I saw quite a few games where the #1 pitcher for a school couldn't pitch the ball without a hump on it. I could only imagine how bad it would be if these girls couldn't use a rocking motion. They are not all that bad and some are pretty good, but those are also the travel ball kids that play for their school.

That's my point. Some school teams are horrific and some do a great job. Not every school even has a real coach, but a teacher who needed the extra money. In this area, if a teacher applies for the job, they get it before any outside concern. It's getting away from that, but not soon enough.[/quote]



The argument express in this thread is that the step-back method is for inferior players than cannot match the ASA standard! So why do ASA men need the step-back? Are they inferior?
[/quote]

#1, I never made that assertion. I simply stated I was told that it was kept in Fed was for participation purposes. Anything else you presume is supposition.

As far as the men are concerned, see below

A few years back, ....well, let's just say a national LL champion softball team didn't really participate in any LL ball until the quest for the championship began. I don't think that is fair, but apparently it happens.


No argument from me, but that is a direct result of the competing sanctioning body which basically has no rules for the pitching corps in their game.

All due respect to both Mike and WMB, this argument about whether the step back is for novice pitchers or power pitchers is silly. Fact is, some believe it helps both. I think they are right.

Thank you Dakota. Took the words outta my mouth. We have one who I nailed with an IP a few weeks back for this thing...at an ASA tournament. It wasn't the little baby step deal...it was all the way off the rubber.

Well, with all due respect to Tom, that had nothing to do with my statement.

I stated it was in place for 'PARTICIPATION' reasons. I have been told, it is easier to throw a pitch without being required to have both feet on the pitcher's plate, hence more girls will at least attempt to pitch for their team.

i.e. easier for novice pitchers... :cool:

The way the FED rules are written, "Any step backward shall begin before the hands come together.", I don't know how you can get a rocking motion. If the rules allowed the pitcher to rock back out of the glove, I guess there would be an advantage. I just can't visualize any way that a pitcher would be able to bring the hands together after the step back without breaking the momentum.

Sorry, you lost me there. What does "rock back out of the glove" mean? I'm referring to the pitcher's body motion.

Maybe in your mind, but you can have a player with a fair bit of experience in the same situation.

Like umpiring, longevity only means the person has been around a while.

Oh, come on! You've seen this with beginning pitchers, especially in the rec leagues just as well as I have. They start with both feet on the pitcher's plate, bring the hands together out in front of the body and swing the arms and the foot back simultaneously. At this point, both the pitching arm and especially the stride foot are loaded with the energy from the backward motion so they get a a spring-like push off going back forward, and they go right into the pitch. Bringing the hands together AFTER the step-back halts this momentum.

Not if the hands remain in motion.

Yes, I've seen it in baseball movies, documentaries and yes, even in person as a child.

A pitcher can easily "rock" without separating the hands after coming together. And if they really want to gain a bit of momentum, the rocking pitcher can bring their hand's together over her head.

Nonetheless, still off subject or, at least, the subject I'm discussing.

Physically (as in kinesiology and physics, at least back when I went to college at some point in the last century), if the hands or foot/feet change directions (or, for that matter, any part of the body) there IS a stop.

Not if it goes in a circle...

But, I once read a story about a driver ticketed for failure to stop at a stop sign who took his case before a judge. He claimed that he had stopped, only very briefly, and perhaps the cop had not seen the stop. To demonstrate his defense, he tossed a coin up in the air, and asked the judge if he saw the coin stop before it reversed directions at the top of the toss.

He was acquitted. :)

My mother-in-law whom went to LSU got out of a ticket almost the same way.
She brought a vido of a pole vaulter in for the judge to watch. Explained that at some point the valuter had to stop in order to come down, but did you see it?

Judged smiled and dismissed the case.

Those are some weak judges..

Dont try that garbage with our judge.

There is nothing in either example that would apply to whether a car stopped. In fact, it is irrelevant and should be inadmissible.

Sorry.
A circle is not a change of direction. A circle is 360 degrees.

Well, one could say that a circle is a constant change of direction. ;) :)

ok. I'm wrong. Sorrrrrryyyyyy.

Hey, I was just being "technical"... (like you were)... ;)