Delayed Asking For help.......
 

I'm PU. Deep grounder between F5 & F6. Shortstop comes up with it and throws to 1B. I'm moving up the line. We have a close play. BU comes up with strong out. I see the pulled foot. Everybody's hooting and hollaring but nobody goes to my partner. Girl goes into dugout, next batter approaches, then offensive coach asks for time and goes to my partner. They talk and coach goes back to coaching box. After the inning is over partner comes over and explains the reason he didn't ask for help was cause the player entered dead ball territory..so she was out either way.

What say you ? Is this correct ?

Also had runner on 3B. Line drive shot to F5. Catch and pretty close play on R1 scurrying back to bag. Partner believes I should have call but I believed he should have call. In the Umpire Manual it says first play in the infield by an infielder on a batted ball is taken by BU. What say you ?

That's just a cop out by an umpire who really needs to learn a very important thing in umpiring: we're fallible, and sometimes, we need to ask for help. In my opinion, if your partner had truly missed the call and you were 100% certain there was a pulled foot, I see nothing wrong with discussing the play out of earshot, then allowing the runner to go back to the base if the BU accepts the "safe" ruling. It was the BU's fault for putting her in the dugout, and this is a problem that is easily corrected.

However, shame on the coach for not asking the BU to ask for help right away. The coach should have told her to stand off the bag in foul territory, then ask for help. Shame, shame, shame.

Wow.

Your partner just folded Joseph Heller's Catch 22 into the quintessential umpire's CYA argument.

As for the play at third base, in slow pitch it would be handled by the PU.

Nonsense. If the incorrect call put the batter-runner in the dugout, then we have a responsibility to fix it.

Just wondering why, in that situation, the conversation should be held "out of earshot"? (if, indeed, it should be)

Thanks.

All discussions between umpires should be held out of earshot ... not just this one.

I remember my FIRST involvement in a situation that had me ask another umpire for help like it was yesterday. I was young and a play occured at first base.....much like the one described.

Coach asks me to ask for help. In that instant I locked eyes with my PU and the look he gave (without tipping his hand) assured me he'd seen the play. I'm walking towards him and point in his direction....He asks me "are you asking me"? YES. He responds with an "out" mechanic while he points to the bag.

This was over 20 years ago......and I've never forgotten it.

I personally felt like nothing was done in that instance that REQUIRED a conversation that the coaches and players weren't privy to. I'd like to keep THOSE conversations to a minimum, also.

If this is poor mechanics.....I need to address it, I guess.....but the "appearance" of private conversations is something I'd like to avoid.

Admittedly......my experiences of late have been one-man (other than state tournaments). I'll follow the follow-ups to this with interest.

Thanks.

Well, if I'm PU in SP and there's a bam-bam play at third, but I'm not sure if the there's a pulled foot, I have no troubles asking across the BU across the field, "did you see him pull his foot?" His angle on the play can be a lot better than mine, even though I hustle my rear off.

As long as the BU and I have cleared this before the game, I see no problem with doing this during live ball. Heck, I had to do it twice last night in a game where the bags were so dirty, you could hardly distinguish them from the field! But for other things, get as much out of earshot as possible (without walking to the outfield fence), talk it over *quietly* with your partner, then let the umpire whose decision it is make the proper ruling.

I say there aren't two teams on the field every night. There are three: home, away, and the officials.

1) The umps should have talked and put the runner on 1st.
2) The described play at 3rd is one of the reasons for the C position and the line drive is not intended as a "first infield play".
3) Discussions between umps should be private with the noted exceptions and the final call is made by the original call ump.

Agree with Cecil

As long as a pitch has not been thrown, there is no statute of limitations on asking for help on a proper appeal.

Agreed
 

I see we should have gotten together on the pulled foot issue. My partner is a good partner he just kicked this one. Though I have to admit I would have had the same line of thinking if he came to me-player went into DBT-she's out....

Any opinions on whose call it was at 3rd base ? This was HS FP game .

2) The described play at 3rd is one of the reasons for the C position and the line drive is not intended as a "first infield play".
IOW, BU

Glad I'm not the only one who cringed upon reading that! :eek:

NC blue,
I understand what you are saying about the "live ball" asking for assistance like you were describing, and IMO opinion I have no issue with it as long as you ask your partner a specific question when you point to him/her, ex. point while saying "FOOT?" so s/he knows you are asking them their opinion of whether the fielder kept their foot on the base or not.

I personally like to get together with my partner, quickly, and discuss the situation. I worked with a partner the other day that when I came to him he flat out asked me "what are you asking me?" at first I was taken back, but as I thought about it, coming together and talking allowed perfect understand what I was looking for help on....lets take another situation, girl gets jammed inside as she is trying to slap hit and is hit by the ball. In that situation you could be asking your partner for several things....did she swing at it? did it hit her in the box? did you see it hit her bat?

Each ump has a different angle and view, so you don't always want to point and leave it open for the other ump to add information, coming together or asking a certain question makes it understandable what you are needing "help" on. What I mean is I might have had a perfect view of the ball hitting the batter then the bat and all I want is was she swinging cause the catcher blocked me at the last second....if I leave it open and BU says "Its a foul ball it hit the bat" now we have a bigger issue. Good communication is key, if you can do that from 20-40 feet away fine, sometimes it takes a meeting of the minds to ensure you get it right.

Here is another reason to keep your conversations with your partner private:

There have been times when I have been asked to get help on a call that I have no intention of changing because I had the entire play. As a game management technique, I will go to my partner in private away from the rest of the participants and say something like...."D*mn, it's hot today", or "So, whose turn to buy after the game?"

I will then turn to the coach and announce that the call stands. Let's play ball!

Before I start getting flamed, I have no problem with discussing a call with a coach and letting him know exactly why I called what I called and telling him that No, I'm not going to my partner on that one.

If I use the technique above, it's because the game has been smooth to that point and I have chosen not to interrupt that flow. The coach gets his request that I talk to my partner and we go from there.

What am I missing? What I am trying to say is that if BU calls BR out at 1B, but F3 pulled foot, and coach asks BU to go for help, that this is a proper appeal for Bu go PU. If PU saw the pulled foot BU would have the chance to reverse his call to safe. The conversation between BU and PU would be just between the two of them.

Tony ... a coach asking you to go for help is not an appeal at all... it's a coach asking you to go for help.

One of my fellow umpires told me this story. He made a judgment call on his base that he absolutely knew was correct. The coach asked him to talk with his partner about it, so he motioned to the other ump to approach. They met in the middle, and my fellow umpire asked under his breath, "do you like hot dogs?" "Yeah, I like hot dogs." "They're good, aren't they?" "Yeah, they certainly are." All the coaches could see was two umpires talking to each other, nodding their heads. In the end, the call stood, and the coach went away happy.

I see no real harm in doing this (as long as you're POSITIVE no one can hear you). If it's your call, and you are 110% certain of what you saw, there's little point in asking another umpire his/her opinion, other than to soothe a coach's ruffled feathers. I'm not saying let the coaches run the game by any means, but sometimes, to keep the peace on a tight play in a hot game, appearances can mean a lot.

Just don't do this.

I was wrong in thinking that a Pulled Foot was one of the four legitimate appeals. I had
1. Missed base
2. Pulled Foot
3. Tag up
4. BOO

Don't know where I came up with Pulled Foot as an appeal. I stand corrected that this is simply asking for help.

Even more puzzling was to read "Attempting to advance to 2B after making a turn at 1B."

What is scary is that I do not recall ever seeing this, nor can I interpret what this really means.

If you were in the proper position and were 110% sure of the call, why are you going to your partner for help? I will not hesitate going to my partner for help if there is even a remote chance that there may have been something I did not see. But I will not go just for the sake of making a coach feel warm and fuzzy all over.

However, I've seen coaches and players ask a BU inside the diamond to go for help on a tag play at 2B in a 2-umpire game. "No, Coach. I had this play from start to finish."

I had the same question.

Like I said... There's little point in doing so. All depends on how much you care if the coach's feathers are ruffled. Personally, my "give a d@mn" sign for coaches' and players' egos has been out for repair for a long time. Don't let the coach run you. If it's yours, it's yours. Make the call and stick to it. If the coach asks, and you have doubts, then ask your partner.

That's what I was trying to get at.