Lesser of Two Evils
 

I think this question deserves its own thread.

Re: U-Make-The-Call

Sitch: PU overturns BU's call. BU should:
a.) just stand there and continue with the game.
b.) leave the field of play
c.) other (explain)

Seems to me that "b" is the lesser of two evils.
By going with "a":
1. Silence constitutes acceptance. Is this the message that BU should send?
2. BU's credibility and authority have been stripped openly and publicly.
3. It establishes a precedent that would permit ANY umpire to overturn ANY OTHER umpire's call at least for the rest of that game, and into the future
4. The integrity of the game has been compromised. Do you stand there in the face of this breach or make a statement.

I choose not to offer some of my thoughts on "c" as they are all with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. This was in the heat of the moment of an unbelievably bizarre situation.

IMHO, BU was in a "dammed if you do and dammed if you don't".

U1 didn't do the right thing, but what would the best course of action in case this happens in a future event to one of you?

Depends, does my partner have the adult liquid refreshments for after the game? :D

Who is paying for your services, the teams or your partner? The PU is not going to overturn didly without a fight. There will be no problem with my integrity because I will have no problem telling both coaches that I will be happy to discuss any questions they have concerning the play after the game, hustle back to my position and let them feast on my partner. And I'll do it with a smile.:)

I will not, however, walk out on the teams, nor give my partner the satisfaction of acting the hero.

Couldn't agree more.

The game is more imortant than the issue to be resolved later between the umpires.

I agree with Mike 110%. If I'm PU and I make a call at the plate, I'll be d@mn3d if another ump, regardless of his experience, hollers another call, even if he's right. I say pull the other ump aside, explain that it's still your call, and show your final ruling. If my partner wants to get pissy about it, fine - I still stand firm and let him look like the idiot (because I guarantee you, he will!). If he makes a scene, I just report it to my boss who handles the scheduling.

I've called games with umpires I've downright loathed. Umpires who, upon seeing them approach the field, make me want to turn around and get back in my car and enjoy some refreshments. But love 'em or hate 'em, it's still my duty and responsibility to be a professional umpire, even if others lack the capacity for reciprocity.

I say again - it's not my job, it's my duty and responsibility as a professional umpire.

Some new information here:

I just spoke with the UIC of the tournament who told me that although U1 walked through the gate, the first person U1 went to was the UIC who was only 5 feet from the gate. He said that U1 didn't leave the game. That he had excused U1 from duty and stepped in to take over for U1.

If any of the coaches were to have protested the OUT call by PU, the UIC would have returned the call to the correct call SAFE. But even UIC's do not overturn a grossly mistaken partner unless help was requested in the proper and professional umpiring protocol.

There is a classic story in NBA lore in a game refereed by the late Earl Strom, arguably the best NBA official ever, and Dick Bavetta who was then a rookie.

Story has Bavetta overrulling Strom's call late in a close game.

Strom said nothing and Bavetta''s call stood.

In the dressing room after the game Strom beat the hell out of Bavetta.

I may stand and shake my head over and over again, I may pull him aside and rip his butt, I may even never speak to him at all, but I will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER leave the field!

I'm not there for my partner, I'm there for the players and the game. If my partner is an idiot, it just makes my job harder. Let him look like a fool when he overrules you, but NEVER walk out on your responsibility. This isn't a "I'll take my toys and go home" job!

OK, looking for consensus here:

When PU unilaterally overturned U1's call, U1 should have calmly walked over to PU and with the same calm demeanor as in speaking to an erroneous coach and said, "You do not have the right to make this call, please revert back to the correct call."

Should PU refuse, then U1 should give PU one more chance before calling in the UIC to hold court on the field.

Does this sound right?

I make no claim to knowing how to handle this situation right. I've never been in this situation, so whatever I say is essentially speculation on how I would like to think I would act.

First, I would argue strongly for what I saw and why it was correct. Second, if the PU tried to overrule, I would argue strongly that he had no such authority. If he did it anyway, I'm not sure there is much to be gained by calling in the UIC to settle the issue. The PU has already shot our credibility as a team in the head, so making the small skirmish into a major cluster-f is not likely to be helpful.

I'm not sure I could manage the smile Mike talks about; more like the evil eye http://forums.s2kca.com/images/smili...es/evileye.gif

while I go back to position, hoping the PU gets himself into a situation later in the game were he REALLY needs my help. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/te...smiley-104.gif

I doubt I would actually push him over the cliff later if given the chance, but I'd be thinking about it!

Offense Protest
 

If I am the OC, I immediately protest the out call. It doesn't matter if the call is correct or not, the second the hand is put out, my runner is protected.

I know this was a bang, bang play but as soon as I know what the call is, I know where my runner is safe and where s(he) is not. Once you have given "safe passage" you cannot retroactively take it away.

Not sure you'd win a protest based on a hand signal given by the off official which your runner could not have been able to react to... You may win a protest based on umpire protocol and who is allowed (by rule) to overrule whom ... but it would be a very tough one to win.

The signal ... by the way ... does not mean "obstruction". The signal merely means that the umpire has a delayed dead ball.

I would say impossible to win unless you just happen to persuade the protest committee, commissioner, UIC, whoever of the injustice of it all or have a UIC who wanted to send a message to the PU. Umpire protocol is defined in Rule 10 (ASA), which begins with this:

I agree... but if this got to a protest committee, one could argue that you simply had two umpires who disagreed and made different calls. There's no reason that the resolution of this situation should be to go with the PU's call - there's at least an equal reason that the resolution should go with the BU's call. Yes ... a VERY tough argument to win in a protest situation. But conceivable.

Protest
 

I didn't think that this protest would be that hard to win, but it looks like I am in the minority. Similar situation - R1 rounding second on a base hit to RF. As she rounds second, she colides with R6 and falls down. FU signals OBS, so I tell my runner to get up and hustle to 3B. She does and is called out. PU states that he doesn't think there is obstruction. So - is she out. Is this bad coaching on my part.

Don't know, but it does sound like goofy umpiring. Did the PU give a reason why the "didn't think there was obstruction"? What did the BU do?

Relying on this signal from an umpire to make coaching decisions IS bad coaching. If your runner was going to be given third base on the OBS, then what good does sending your runner do?

What if PU saw the runner change direction to run at F6, and BU didn't? And after discussion they agree there was no OBS. The DDB signal is no guarantee, and coaches should not make a decision based on seeing such a signal.

Explain to us what you would say to a protest committee in the initial sitch? How would you easily win such a protest?

McCrowder-
I didn't say i would win easily, I said i thought I would win easily. Apparently not. My protest would be that OBS was called as a judgement call and I didn't think other umpires could overule judgement calls. To me this isn't any different than the U1 calling a runner safe at first and then having the PU say - "Nope, that runner was a half step late-out." Then U3 says -"Looked out from here" I thought U1 had to make the final determination (even if he/she goes for help). I did not realize that a majority of other umpires could overrule.

As to another question, the reason I would send the runner to third is that perhaps the ball could still be thrown away or I might ger B/R to 2B. Thanks for the heads up, though. Whenever I see the umpire signal OBS I thought that was for the coaches benefit. Why signal OBS if the call may change later? Just a question.

Thanks for the information on this thread.

Fair enough on the protest.

To your last question ... I keep trying to say that the signal you read as obstruction merely means delayed dead ball ... and could be caused by different things. I do admit that MOST of the time if it's the BU making this signal it is because he saw OBS. But it does not ALWAYS mean that.

Regarding sending your runners - you may make assumptions as to the base a runner is protected to that differ from the umpire's assumption. Sending a runner after seeing what you read as an OBS call will only help if you entice a ball to be thrown away - kind of a slim chance when weight against the possible negatives - your runner outrunning her protection, for example, or the DDB not, in fact, resulting in OBS.

Most of us here have seen coaches make assumptions based on OBS, and have seen it go poorly for them. My example is on an F4 blocking the bag on a slide play into 2nd. I rule OBS and signal ... and the ball gets away toward third. Coach yells, "ARM!!!!", which is apparently his signal to his runners to attempt another base due to the umpire's signal. R1 gets up and tries to go to 3rd, and is tagged by F6 who had just picked up the ball. WORSE, BR heads to 2nd, and is tagged out easily.

Needless to say, after I told coach I had R1 protected between 1st and 2nd, and only to 2nd, and BOTH of his runners were out, he managed to eject himself.

Another I witnessed, while grading umpires - varsity level travel game being played under ASA rules. R1 from 1st rounding 2nd doesn't see F6 and they go down in a heap. BU signals OBS. BR is sent to 2nd after coach sees the signal, and makes it barely. F4 now has the ball. R1 literally crawls back to the base. As soon as she gets to 2nd, they tag BR again, who is now out.

That coach managed to stay in the game ... although I am not sure I'd have kept him in if I was the umpire on the spot.

mcrowder-

Thank you for all of your insight.

I don't think I have an out here -- although I can understand the reasoning.

I don't have my book with me, but the phrase "protect the obstructed runner to the base you judge they would have reached, AND put any other runners on the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction" is stuck in my head. Can we put R1 on 2B and return R2 to 1B?

I don't think you can. The runner legally attained 2B. Any edge to a ruling should be to the offended team, not the team causing the OBS.