Runners requesting time
 

I can swear I saw something recently either on this board or the NFHS board regarding this, but even trying searches I have been unable to locate any threads that talk about this.

Do you grant time when a runner slides safely into a base when the only reason for the request is to stand up safely? I'm hesitant to kill the play when there is no good reason to do so, but I have been unable to find anything in the rule book or case book which addresses this topic. Most of the time what I find is that a runner quickly requests time, stands up, breaking contact with her base while the fielder returns the ball to the pitcher. Meanwhile I never signal nor verbalize "Time". Runners seem to have it ingrained into them that a slide should always be followed with a request for time, and fielders are used to having umpires grant them time.

I'm asking this because I encountered a situation where a runner slid safely into third (advancing on a wild pitch) and immediately she and her third base coach are requesting time. I asked the runner why she was requesting time and got only a puzzled look in return. Meanwhile, third base coach tells me "Well if you're not going to give her time I'll get the plate umpire to do it." He follows up by asking the plate umpire for time and has it immediately granted.

I guess part of my reasoning for not killing the play is a question I asked last year regarding umpires getting back to their positions at the conclusion of a play. Even though most of my partners turn their backs on the play, I have taken the advice I received here and hustled quickly back to my position while never taking my eyes away from any possible plays. Thus, my thinking that I'm doing this because the ball should remain live.

Thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

If thats the only thing going on I certainly grant time when the runner requests it after a sliding play.

Your argument in opposition is WAY over officiating IMO. Grant the time, let them stand up and dust themselves off, you clean off the base in the mean time and move on to your position.

Of course if there is potential action somewhere else, you would not kill the ball.

I generally try to wait until the ball is in the circle and all play has stopped before I grant a time request. I may call time on my own if the runner is in an awkward position and can't get to her feet without releasing contact of the base - AND all other play has stopped.

I'll tell the players/coaches that if I call time and the defense throws the ball away, you've lost an opportunity to advance. But I'm much more selfish than that, since what I really mean is if I call time, it's going to be much tougher to get an out. :D

What the heck is wrong with you two???

Just grant it jeez!! This is not rocket surgery.

:cool: :D

That's why I'm asking. :p

I'm not trying to over officiate and since it seems I was doing just that, please accept my gratitude for setting me straight! :D

If the play is over, grant the request. If the runner is not stable and is trying to get time prior to losing their balance, the play is not yet over.

And remember, if there are other active runners, make sure ALL play is complete before considering honoring the request.

How 'bout ...

R1 goes 1st to 3rd on long single to left center. BR 2 steps off 1st.
SS gets ball 30' out on the grass and takes a coupla steps in and requests time. Neither runner is looking to advance.

Grant it or not.

In this case, I generally wait for the ball to get into the circle . . . This situation really could put the offense at a disadvantage. In the other case I grant it if play has stopped - no one is at a disadvantage since the O requested it.

Big difference in defense requesting time. Thats beer league status.

I guess I am in the minority here; the NCAA manual reminds us of how I understood ASA to teach the game. This is a live ball game, and that means there should be a reason to make the ball dead. I have had several members of the NUS as UIC at an ASA NationalChampionship Final clearly state that, unless a player is likely to lose a limb or is in an equally perilous situation, NO BASE UMPIRE SHOULD CALL TIME. If it needs to be called, only the plate umpire, with the entire field in front, should call time. If U1 has rotated home, that is the umpire who calls time.

The runner asks for time; if there is no reason to grant it, don't. The coach asks for time; I will ask "why?" Runners are capable of standing up without time being granted. Runners are capable of brushing off without time being granted. Coaches can speak or give signals without time being granted. The only situation when I grant time is when a fielder is holding a tag while the runner is holding a base, and we are simply killing time waiting, since the fielder thinks she should keep holding that tag. Or, obviously, if it appears a runner may be injured (even then, looking to the plate umpire to be sure all play has ended). Otherwise, I do not grant time; runners and coaches learn quickly that it is unnecessary.

Oh yeah, base umpire, call time and sweep the base, and your NCAA evaluator is writing away. You only stop play to sweep a base if it is completely covered. Otherwise, it is only to be done in already dead moments, like between innings, pitching changes, etc.

The defense asks for time; with runners on, if the ball is not in the circle in possession of the pitcher, it simply should not be granted. That is basic.

Now, l know that Mike prefers the slowpitch protocol of calling time automatically whenever play "has stopped". He will argue that would render the circle and the lookback rule unnecessary. But, not even he will state that is what fastpitch mechanics are at this time. I don't think it is overly officious; it is how the fastpitch game is officiated at the highest levels. And there is no reason to play differently at any other level.

In Slow-Pitch I call time as soon as a infielder has the ball and all runners are at a base or within 3 ft of one. In FP I never call time unless requested by a player or coach. Also I have no problem calling time as long as I have the play in front of me. Calling time when the play is in back of you can make for a long game with the complaining from the teams for killing their opportunity to throw the ball in to a DB area.:D

Dirt in runner's shirt to jock ? :)

in my mind, that is exactly the situation we are discussing.

That was part of the discussion for after you call time for the "holding the tag".

NCAA does do things differently though, and they are not the standard IMO. In fact, NCAA robots are about the worst in mechanics I've seen and they are particularly robotic this year, to the point of being irratating to watch.

Not ... not until the ball's in the circle and everything has stopped.

Mountaineer and mcrowder,
Thanks.
That works. :)

You're not. Most umpires I work with will not call timeout in the OP, unless we're playing the waiting game for no reason. In fact, we often brag in the dressing room (or the bar) about how many half innings we had that were live the whole time. I'd say that more than half of my innings are constantly live - with the majority of breakages caused by conferences and fouls out of play.

Well, now that Steve stole my thunder.....:cool:

I don't think you can compare NCAA ball to much else. There are people who CANNOT get up off the ground and keep contact with the base. And just who determined this had to be a "live" game?

What is the purpose of not granting the player's request for time to get up and prepare to continue the game? There is no more delay than there would be for the crew to move into position. For that matter, it might even allow the game to proceed at a quicker pace.

Sorry, I just don't see the fascination with the "live" game issue. Then again, about a year ago I asked someone to give me a valid reason to keep the game live other than "because" or "it's always been that way" or "it's tradition" and I'm still waiting for an answer. :rolleyes:

I don't understand your fascination with trying to turn the fastpitch game into slowpitch without the arc rule.

I also don't understand why you think it is a good thing for the game to remove the requirement that the defense maintain control of the ball to keep runners from advancing.

Why is calling the game the way it's meant to be called a "fascination"? There's no reason to stop play every 30 seconds to reset. This isn't football. There is a flow to the game. Constant stoppages for unnecessary timeouts disrupts that flow.

But calling time to allow a runner the ability to get up is IMHO not "unneccessary". With that said though, I have had too many runners think they can just throw their hands up and say time and jump up before I grant it and that out usually gets a conversation with the coach as they cant understand how she is out when "SHE called time"

There's my point. Thank you, very much. WHO SAID THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED "LIVE"? What God of softball made that determination?

BTW, you may keep the ball live in FP, but nothing is supposed to happen, so what difference does it make? You get a gotcha on a runner who comes off a base every now and then? Is THAT the way the game is supposed to be played?

If "stoppage" is so bad, why is it that the SP game (which Tom mistakenly believes is part of my belief on this subject) which has more action, more offense, more defense, more at bats and the same number of outs takes only 2/3 of the time it takes to play a quick FP game?

Couldn't be farther from the truth. Don't go strawman on me.

Please note where I make such a statement? Don't waste your time, you cannot find what doesn't exist.

As previously noted, nothing is supposed to occur between the end of the play and the next pitch anyway, so what it the difference? If the defense needs to do something like pull back hair, tie a shoe, or whatever, the game is going to be suspended anyway, so where is the issue?

Still waiting for a valid answer to my question.

To me, softball and baseball are games designed to test a multitude of skills. One of the lesser of those skills is the ability of a runner to stay on a base without getting tagged out. Until the runner demonstrates this ability, I don't have relaxed action.

I will not call time in this situation unless the runner on the ground and the fielder holding a tag freeze for a few seconds, in which case I call time even without a request (assuming no other action on the field). I will call time upon request if the runner is stretched out in such a position that they would have unreasonable difficulty in regaining their feet without coming off the bag, such as a hook slide away from the bag with one toe touching.

Sometimes repeated requests will elicit a "You don't need time" from me.

However, I don't feel strongly about this issue and have no problem with another ump handling it differently.

Strawman is as strawman does. You started this with the "fascination" charge.

You want to kill the ball when all play has stopped. So, all play has stopped, F6 is standing there with the ball. All runners are stopped on a base. All that remains is to throw the ball back to the pitcher. So, you want to kill the ball then. F6 then overthrows F1. Ball is dead, runners cannot advance. What is the advantage in killing the ball? Easier on the umpire?

If you want to compare apples and apples on slow v fast pitch, don't compare men's slowpitch with JO fastpitch. What is the pace of the game for a men's fastpitch compared with slowpitch at the same skill classification?

And why are you the sole arbiter as to what is a "valid" answer to your question?

Occasionally Mike is WRONG.... today is one of those days

Just an FYI.. There are still some places that have JO Slowpitch that is very competitive.

Sorry gentlemen, it was not my intention to ignite a firestorm. AtlUmpSteve summed up my thoughts on this fiasco much more eloquently than I ever could. Like Steve and Paul L, among others, I didn't mean that I am willing to stand there while a fielder holds a tag on a runner who can't walk it up, and I tried to reflect that in my original post.

I have now officially flip flopped on this issue once again. I see myself being like Paul L in that while I may not grant time every time it's requested, it won't chap my hide if somebody else does it.

Dukat, I would have a hard time stopping myself from responding to the coach who complains "SHE called time" with a "Yes Coach, she did call time but the shortstop called 'Play Ball' before she made the tag." :p

Ha! No problem. Steve opened a door (maybe knowingly :rolleyes: ) on a favorite topic of mine and I walked through it. After a little note to Tom and Darrell, I'll be finished.........for now.

Tom, Tom, Tom.....why is it that you seem offended by that word? There is nothing wrong with being fascinated by something. Fireworks come to mind?

However, the way so many jumped in, it seems that by the definition, my use of the word was quite accurate.

Hey, you want to wait until the ball gets back to the pitcher in the vicinity of the PP, that's fine by me. Just like anything else in the game, you can "what if" it to death, you can always find a scenario that doesn't fit the rule.

I was not comparing games. I was demonstrating that the fears of my suggestions affecting the flow of the game are not valid. Nothing would change in the player's or coach's mannerisms if play was suspended. The ONLY difference would be that one umpire wouldn't have to wait for the partner to return to position before s/he could do so.

I believe that, if anything, it could be beneficial to all. The coaches don't have to worry about getting the attention of their pitcher and infielders who are watching the runners. The pitching coach gets the signal to the catcher/pitcher sooner, the base coaches can concentrate on giving the batter her signs which means she is in the box and ready to hit sooner and, yes, the umpires can move back into position and concentrate on what they should be and not whether little Susie falls off a base or does a little groundkeeping around the base. I know Sue Enquist (UCLA) might have had a couple more notches on her belt had my methods been in place in the NCAA a few years back. :)

It's been so long since I saw a men's FP game, I couldn't tell you how long they run now. When I was still playing FP in the early 70s, game lasted about 90 minutes.

Because it IS my question :p Cliff's question was correct, "Who are three people who have never been in my kitchen!"


Darrell, Darrell, Darrell......tsk, tsk, tsk! :D

Actually, I wasn't. It was your feigned offense that resulted in my pointing out who started this. I've never had a discussion about how many live ball innings I've had; heck I'd have no idea. It is not something I pay any attention to.

This is not an unusual scenario, and you're the one who is advocating the slow pitch approach of killing the ball when all play has ended, not me. You said that; you didn't suggest waiting until the ball is in the circle (this time around). Maybe that is because it doesn't speed things up as much as you claim if you wait that long. I still fail to see how calling TIME and suspending play speeds anything up at all. The umpires getting back into position is hardly a big time consumer.


Tomayto, tomahto.OK, it would protect players from stupid mistakes. Maybe we should allow mulligans also. What would work for you? Three a game?It's Larry, Darrell, and Darrell. If I recall, they were from over your way. ;)

PS to those new to this board: This is an old discussion that renews itself every so often, kinda like the profanity rule discussion. All we need is for wade to jump in again on the side of suspending play as a way to speed things up. At least I think that was wade... Wade? ;)

Slide play with nothing else going on.. you got the runner down holding the base, the player holding the tag.. runner requests time - you call time.

Thats the proper thing to do. Thats the way its done in all levels. There is absolutely no valid reason not to call time. In fact you waste time with confusion and attitude NOT calling time, because everyone else knows to call time.

Anything else is a power trip- the umpire has the power to not call time, so they dont - this has nothing to do with the "integrity of the game" or the "flow" of the game or anything else.

I know this post is not about the offense asking for time but...
what are we to do when the lead runner is holding to her base and no other runner can advance behind her? After a few seconds aren't we suppose to call time when the offense has given up on any more advancements even though the ball has not been thrown and controlled in the circle? If a girl is on 1st and 2nd and the third-base coach tells the (lead runner) on 2nd to stay there I call time. Even if the coach is telling her to advance and she doesn't move for a few seconds I call time. The coaches all understand that time will be called not only when control of the ball comes in the circle but when the above reasons come as well. .Al

[post deleted by poster. Who cares about what he thinks...and my list was too damn long.)

I would ask you exactly the opposite.

I'm not playing God when I come to the conclusion that this is the way it should be played. The rules themselves lead me to that conclusion. If my conclusion is in error, I welcome you to change my mind. But the fact that the rulebook limits the amount of times that each team can stop play to discuss things, the fact that there are rules around what may or may not happen between pitches (implying that the ball should be live during this period), as well as other things, lead me to believe that the underlying assumption is that the ball is live most of the time. And when it is, there is a natural flow, like I mentioned above.

And maybe it's just a matter of perception.

But the slowpitch game seems to have no flow to me. Stop, start, stop, start, etc.

I have no problem calling time on this play assuming everything else has stopped.

I DO have a problem calling time on EVERY play (as some umpires I've seen do ... even at the state level --- and every time I come across a guy that does this, I expect him to brush the pitcher's plate between innings and inform the pitcher where the baserunners are after a pitching change ... and I'm rarely disappointed). I also have a problem calling time on every unnecessary runner request - such as plays where the fielder is not holding the runner down with a tag or the ball has even left the area.

Why do you feel the need to call time in these unrequested situations? The ball is not dead - heck, the ball's not even to the pitcher yet. What's the purpose in stopping play - especially in the situation where the coach is telling a girl to advance!

THe problem with this is if that ball gets by the pitcher or another fielder you'll be hearing the 3rd base coach telling you that you're preventing his runner from advancing.Imho I wait till the pitcher has that ball in the circle.

Tuesday, I had this situation:

Top of 7th, 2 outs, bases empty, visitors ahead 6-2. Catcher batting, hits a gapper to right center. She pulls into second - the ball comes into F4, who starts walking the ball in. The runner, anticipating a courtesy runner, steps off second and takes a couple of steps toward her bench. F4 sees the runner off the base, tags her, and I ring her up. Visiting coach goes ballistic, "... you knew we were going to put in a courtesy runner." I reply, "Coach, if instead of tagging your runner out, suppose F4 would have thrown the ball to F1 wildly and it went out of play. Would you want your runner to score?" Of course she says yes. I tell her "You can't have it both ways."

You never know what is going to happen until the ball gets in the circle and it isn't our job to stop play to make it 'safe' for either team. Calling time may take an advantage away from one team that deserved it because the other team wasn't doing their job.

Strange happenings
 

I worked with this cat on Tuesday who called time All the time. He was PU and I was BU.

He is a good blue and partner just was a little strange hearing him call "Time" all afternoon.

I work my share of solo JV games,and the occasional Varsity solo game, and I am finding that I fall into "it's a live ball game."

I really thought this would be a short thread and it's turning into Grapes of Wrath!

Just a rant - I get weary of coaches that call time the very second ball four is called and start walking toward the field - I have to say "Coach, you don't have time yet - we talked about this in pregame!" For goodness sakes, do they really think they can just walk out on the field while the game is going on? (Rhetorical question)

OK, I feel better now, back to your normal programming!

I agree that the situation you describe warrants a TIME call. Most of us agree on that.

What if neither the runner (nor her coach) requests time? I'll give it a few, and if this is just a cat 'n' mouse game, I call TIME anyway.

That is different, though, from calling time everytime play is apparently over. I very much disagree with calling time when a coach is telling his runner to go and she is not going (yet). Also, MNBlue's example is a good one where calling TIME when play has apparently ended and when everybody knows what is next (CR) would have prevented the defense from getting an out due to an offensive mistake.

If there is a reason to call TIME, do it. If not, don't. I'm not a hard case on keeping the ball live as much as possible. However, only kill it when there is a reason. End of play is not a reason.

for me, if i have a slide play and the runner requests time I'll look around, then when all play is stopped and I have nothing else to do - I'll grant time. if its a slide play i'll usually have to clean the bag anyway - at least in some ballparks.

Never insinuated this was the case. Read my last post.

One step further
 

Heck, I will take it one step further and suggest to you I will not wait for the runner to ask for time, I will just do it myself. As an example, runner on first, pick off attempt, runner slides in, and first baseman catches the ball. Thats an instant time call in my opinion.

All play is over, reset, and lets move on. Now obviously, if more runners are on base, you have to make sure there is no other action on the field. . . but after that, time can be a great way of keeping the game moving and flowing better.

I'm sorry, I just don't get the fascination :cool: with killing the ball as if nothing more of interest could happen on a play. Where does this come from? Why is it somehow a detriment to the game to have the players actually play the game? This is not football. I cannot imagine where this comes from, except from the slow pitch game. It certainly is not coming from small ball.

[post deleted by user. Who cares what the fat guy in the Seattle area really thinks...)

I have to ask you what the purpose is in you killing the play at this point. It helps NOTHING, and potentially hurts. There's absolutely no reason for an "instant time call" here (nor a time-call at all).

Get in this habit, and one day you will stop play right as the R1 on third that you forgot about tries to score.

Time!!!!


:D

calling time is a great way of keeping the game moving and flowing better ???

I think its just the opposite ...........

If you NEED to call time, then do it. if ya don't, then don't

Speaking coach-pitch, here in my home town in TN. all umpires (pre-season,)were instructed to call time when either the lead runner is making no attempt to advance for a few seconds or the ball is controlled in the circle. This applies both in regular play and in tournament play. If a coach is trying to get his player to advance but for some reason she stays on the base we are still to call time after a few seconds goes by.

The only time I had any negative feedback with this was early in the season when I didn't call time when there was a girl on 2nd and 3rd and a ball was hit in front of 3rd and the coach was holding the runners while the batter-runner was running to 1st. Just as the batter-runner got to 1st the fielder who was near 3rd base decided to throw the ball to the circle and the ball got a little passed her. All the runners passed the half-way line before the ball was finally controlled in the circle. The defensive coach asked why I didn't call time when the lead runner was being held for well over a few seconds. I explained the lead runner rule doesn't start until the batter runner reaches 1st base and in this case his fielder didn't hold the lead runner but chose to throw to the circle directly after the batter-runner got to 1st base. He understood and I made this a part of my pregame talks to other teams. ...Must hurry alone, ...Al

well coach-pitch (8U) is a little different IMO ... thats how we do it in my local league too ... we start the "real" game at 10U

I have worked coach pitch in the past with similar rules, and I think you did it right.
I also understand the question,
I am glad that you were able to explain the ruling in a fair and literate manner.

Oh, pardon me, I misread...I mistook the p for a b in "coach pitch.":D

A bad time to call time...

Earlier this week, I could have choked my partner for calling "time" an a most inappropriate time. Runner on third, ball four to batter who rounds first hard and fast in an obvious attempt to draw a throw. And she does!

The ensuing rundown took three throws to retire the runner and I'm scrambling to cover the play. Meanwhile, the runner on third tried to score, but didn't get a good jump and wound up back at third.

As soon as I banged out the batter-runner, there's a ruckus behind me. Offensive coach is running onto the field, pointing at the plate umpire and screaming, "He called time, he called time!".

I give him the stop sign and say, "Coach, stay off the field. We're going to sort this out right now", and headed straight for my partner.

Sure enough, he meekly admits that he had called "time" at the request of the defensive coach, who wanted to talk to his pitcher and was roaming out onto the field, just before the batter-runner reached first base.

Too bad he didn't signal it clearly or call it loud enough for the other umpire, the B/R, the runner, or the defenders to notice it! Could have saved us all a lot of running around!

Needless to say, we had a little talk about that one.

Ouch, Bret. I sure hope he bought.

Let me see if I get this.
The PU called time before the BR reached 1st :eek: , didn't check R1 :eek: , didn't help with the rundown :o , didn't yell to stop the rundown :mad: , didn't yell to prevent a play on R1 :o ; and oh yeah won't be your partner anytime soon :rolleyes: .

Actually, I'd work with this guy again. He was fairly new, but overall potentially a good umpire. When I went to him after the play, he knew right away that he had killed it too soon, seemed apologetic about it and, I think, learned a lesson he'll remember from now on.

I had what turned out to be an amusing situation in a game
this year. A batter runner had a long single to the outfield and decided
to stretch it into a double. Unfortunately her legs slipped out from under her after she rounded 1st base and she tumbled (you know what over
teakettle) onto the infield. She rolled over and sat up gving the "T-sign"
for time out. I quickly assessed that she was not injured because she was
actually laughing about it, and denied any time out. The opposing team
meanwhile had relayed the ball back and she was tagged out. We both had a chuckle.
Of course had she really been injured I would have killed play right there
so that she could have been attended to.

8U is 8U. You do what you have to at that level. My comments above were for 12u and up.

I think the whole idea for having the hold the lead runner rule for the coach-pitch league is to familiarize the kids as to where the runners are so they can try to get them out, or stop their advancement, instead of just throwing the ball to the circle or 1st base only as they have been usually doing in T-ball. This better awareness of the runners makes for more action such as tagout attemps or throws to various bases. It was my bad that I failed to mention I was speaking coach-pitch.

This year In our 11u regular season fast-pitch we were told in a pre-season meeting of coaches and umpires that we are going to be using the Look-Back Rule. So far no one has violated it and been called out. If it does happen I expect plenty of fans, players and maybe even a coach or two to ask "WHAT JUST HAPPENED"?

Nothin' like fun at the ole' ball park! ...Al