Game ending scenario - runner goes into DBT
 

I brought this up once in the other thread, but didn't ask again there since it was a bit off the topic of the appeals and such.

Bases loaded, bottom 7, R1 is the winning run. 1 out. BR gets a walk. R1 crosses home. All other runners enter the celebration and do not advance to their bases.

In FP, this is a live ball situation. An appeal cannot be made until the runners are no longer eligible to complete their base-running duties. That can't happen until the runners enter DBT. However, if the runners abandon their attempt to advance and enter DBT, that is not an appeal. They are merely out.

Does the umpire declare them out rather than wait on the appeal? If not, why not?

If, in the celebration, one or more of the active runners pass each other, are they also declared out? If not, why not?

ASA Case Book 2005/06 Page 80, Play 8.6-1


Similar situation with two outs.....in one scenario the batter leaves the field, in the other, the runner on first leaves....

The ruling states that in neither case is it an appeal play and must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field. The same ruling could be extended to your scenario of a runner passing another runner

One word - booger! I'm not looking for any, are you? ;)

What, exactly, was the point of that post?

If I understand Irish correctly, I believe the point was, "Didn't see it, so I can't call it."

What an answer.

It's common in clinics and amongst umpires to say "don't pick boogers" as a means of describing over officiating.

I'm not surprised you've never heard that term.

If you say so.

Well, dammit, if you go looking for boogers you will find boogers. Every other umpire on here has found them and learned not to go looking for them.

Mike's answer not only made sense but was right on. And, as far as I know, "looking for boogers" is not some regional colloquialism. We use it in WA, they use it in DE, I've used it in TX and so have others, and even the Okies use it.

John,
Add Pa to that list. It's a wide-spread phrase and is seems to be generally accepted & used.

I understand the reference to not picking boogers here ... but not picking this particular booger can get you in trouble if the other team is paying attention. We discussed in the earlier thread that all runners must reach their bases or be subject to appeal. The problem on this one is that the BR should be called out BEFORE any appeal is necessary, and if I'm the coach on the other side, I'm going to expect you to do so.

I admit that I understand the motivation for ignoring this call --- I just don't know if I could actually do so on the field. Maybe that makes me OOO, I don't know - but this one just feels wrong to me to ignore.

I understand Mike's point. Taking the defense off the hook because they were not paying attention seems like over officiating. OTOH, it is the rule.

OTOH, again, the umpire's responsibilities at the end of the game are as Mike outlined. Are we actually supposed to track every runner in and out of the celebration to wait and see if they enter DBT? What if they all go through the line up hand-slap "good game" ritual that the kids do? I'll be gone before then.

Let's see...

No mention of B/R in the OP.

B/R touches 1st.. Runners from 1st and 2nd out for abandonment. Timing play, run scores , game over.

B/R fails to go to 1st.
B/R out for abandonment, 2nd out. Runners from 1st or 2nd out for abandonment, 3rd out, timing play. Run scores, game over.

??? :confused:

He meant BR touching or not touching first base on the walk, I believe.

Timing play, run scores , game over.
Hallelujah

After two days we have a winner.

The "BR gets a walk. R1 crosses home. All other runners enter the celebration and do not advance to their bases" part is a little ambiguous as to whether the "All other runners" includes the BR or not.

We all know not to look for boogers (trouble for some ;), but knowing what to do if the defense coach finds the booger, might be worthwhile.

The timing play outs seem the answer, unless it's the BR not touching 1st for the 3rd out.

These can't be timing plays, as the bases these runners failed to touch were bases they were forced to advance to due to Batter becoming a runner...

I asked this of a rules guy I know. He agreed with me that by rule we should call this out. He also pointed out, however, that if BR was the first to "abandon", then the other runners are no longer forced to advance - thus making THEIR outs timing plays.

Now, Mike, in the original post, there was one out. While I agree they can't all be timing plays, it certainly would matter in what order you recognized the other runners' failure. If R3 abandoned before R2, R3's out is a force, while R2's is now a timing play.:D :D :rolleyes:

I do now see the point about the ambiguity of my phrase "other runners" in the OP. I meant "other than the runner who scored" and I meant that to include the BR.

The various order of the players entering DBT was something I was thinking about when I wrote the OP. How about this: if the umpire rules the BR out first for entering DBT, not only are there no longer any force outs, the game is actually over since the other runners are not in jeopardy and there are no appeals available, either.

Why not, or am I still asleep?

It was a walk. They were forced to advance without jeopardy. Just because the BR is declared out does not put those other runners (who are between bases) now in jeopardy of being tagged.

Based on the discussion here on a two-out bases loaded walk to end the game, we all are better informed.

In a one umpire game it is going to be pretty difficult to argue that a baserunner missed advancing when the umpire has to watch the run being scored and the batter advancing while the rest of the players are celebrating or walking off the field.

And, by the book and no matter the number of umpires, if the teams are lining up for congratulations and nothing has been said, we are leaving.

Dakota ... you know this. :)

The rule does not say the runners are FORCED to advance without jeopardy. They are ALLOWED to advance without jeopardy. Before BR is put out, they ARE forced to advance - due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

However, once BR is out, while they are still ALLOWED to advance without jeopardy, they are no longer FORCED to advance at all - thus making any appeals or incidences of them missing 2nd or abandoning 1st base timing plays and not force plays.

Yeah, you said it better than I did. I was responding to the Q about why they were not in jeopardy. And, since they are no longer forced to advance, their failure to touch the next base cannot be appealed. Neither can they be tagged for being off the base. Game over.

Well, actually ASA sorta does: 8.5.
RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITHOUT LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT.
A When forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on ball.

:D

I see the smiley ... but the folks arguing this (and the trolls ... I'll leave it to the reader to determine if these two groups are one and the same) will think you are saying I was incorrect.

ENTITLED is much more close to "Allowed" and certainly not the same as "Forced" or "Required".