Runner
 

A runner is on third and never leaves third .
The catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher who now has the ball in the circle but not on the rubber.
The runner now breaks for home .
Is this legal

Not unless the pitcher made a play on the runner (or on another runner).

It is a violation of the lookback rule in the sequence you describe; that the pitcher has possession of the ball in the circle before the runner leaves the base. If the runner starts while the ball is in the air to the pitcher, that is a legal advance.

And the pitcher being on the pitching plate has absolutely nothing to do with this violation. The pitcher merely has to have both feet within the circle.

A minor addition, if multiple runners violate, only one can be out for RCR/LBR violation. Usually the earliest one to leave the base.

Or one foot in a certain ruleset. Dave

Ok
Now same thing but we have a batter runner who gets a walk and advances and rounds first but doesnt stop .
The runner on third situation is the same , doesnt move off third until the B/R is half way to second and the pitcher just looks .

Same answer, just one added requirement. The look-back rule goes in effect when BOTH requirements are met; the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle AND the batter-runner has reached first base. Leaving prior to either requirement is a legal advance; leaving after is a violation.

As long as the BR reaches 1st and "the pitcher just looks", R1 may not leave the base. The BR can run or not, no effect on R1. Of course, the BR can violate independently, but still no effect on R1 unless R1 leaves the base or the pitcher makes/fakes a play.

Keep on the explanations or different points of view .
Now I need the rule reference
You can put it in as your ASA and I will match it to ISF .

The reason I put this in is for the first time in many years I did a u13 game and this happened .( I normally do Premier men and women and this doesnt happen )
As we know if you dont see something or it hasnt happened before you have to think .
Now I thought "mmmmmmm this isnt right " and thought the same as your replies but it was late in the game and one team was leading by heaps so I left it but it started preying on my mind and I went to the "experts"
after all most of you guys havnt started ball yet and you have nothing better to do than troll through rules :D

Fortunately, we didn't have to, but that last line was a bad choice of verbs.

ASA 8:7:T is the lookback rule. Also, POE....er, uh....R/S #34.

You are right
I didnt relate troll as to a troll in this discussion board
Should have used trawl .
But anyway thanks .
It bugged me for days:rolleyes:

DeBeau - You start doing some youth games after working high levels of adult ball - and you're going to see all sorts of strange stuff. It'll be kinda fun to hear what you see in the mixture of games.

OK
Can I access ASA rules and POEs on line ?

Nope. That is something that ASA has never done.

Oh
Then is it too much trouble to give me the rule (so I can match it to ISF) rule book and a short description of POEs

You already asked this, and it was answered by Scott... "ASA 8:7:T is the lookback rule. Also, POE....er, uh....R/S #34."

I am getting the feeling that nobody is listening to me lately!!! :rolleyes:

I'm sorry ... did you say something?

Yep I did ask
What I meant to say , and I suppose as umpires we have to be specific , could you type the jist of it here as well as the POE .

That sure is a lot of typing you want.

I actually thought about doing it, then looked at how much of it there was, and decided that since I am at work, I will leave this daunting task for someone else!

Here, for example, is the LBR from the NCAA rulebook:

Look-Back Rule
SECTION 21. a. The look-back rule is in effect when the ball is live, the
batter-runner has touched first base, there are one or more runners, and
the pitcher has possession (that is, holds the ball in her hand or gloved
hand) and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle. The pitcher is
considered to be in the pitcher’s circle when both her feet are within the
circle or on the lines.
b. When a runner is legally off her base after a pitch or as a result of a
batter completing her turn at bat, and she is in motion as the pitcher
takes possession of the ball within the pitcher’s circle, the runner may
continue moving forward in the direction she is going without stopping;
or she may immediately and directly go back in the other direction. If the
runner is stopped as the pitcher takes possession of the ball within the
pitcher’s circle, the runner must immediately and directly go forward or
back. A base on balls or a dropped third strike is treated as a base hit as
long as the batter-runner continues past first base.
c. Once the runner has determined a direction, she may not reverse
direction unless the pitcher:
1. Throws the ball from within the pitcher’s circle.
2. Carries the ball outside the pitcher’s circle.
3. Has one foot completely outside the pitcher’s circle, on the ground,
and is in possession of the ball.
4. Sets the ball on the ground or no longer has the ball in her hand or
gloved hand.
5. Loses possession of the ball, including handing it to another player.
6. Makes a play on the runner or another runner.
Note: When the pitcher’s circle is not visible, the umpire must use good
judgment.
d. The pitcher is considered to have made a play if:
1. She fakes a throw.
Note: Raising the throwing arm into throwing position is considered a fake
throw regardless of whether the pitcher’s arm moves forward.
2. She makes any aggressive body movement toward the base runner
(e.g., steps toward the runner, head and body fakes toward the
runner).
e. There is no obligation on the part of the pitcher to look, fake or throw
in order to force the runner to comply with the look-back rule. The
obligation to comply rests solely with the runner.
f. When the pitcher takes possession of the ball within the pitcher’s
circle:
1. A runner standing off her base must immediately return to the base
she last occupied or advance to the next base.
2. A runner who starts back to the base she last occupied or starts
forward toward the next base shall not stop or reverse direction.
3. The batter-runner may not step off any base after stopping at it.
188 RULE 12 / BASE RUNNING
4. The batter-runner, after overrunning first base, may not retouch the
base and advance toward second base.
5. The batter-runner, after overrunning first base, must immediately
return nonstop to first base or, if she does not retouch first base, must
make an attempt to advance to second. If after passing the base, the
runner is heading back toward first within the basepath extended, she
may make a decision to go to either base. However, stepping beyond
the extended basepath in foul territory commits the runner to first
base while stepping beyond the basepath toward the second- base
side commits the runner to second base.
EFFECT (1-5)—The ball is dead, the offending runner is out, and each
other runner must return to the last base legally touched at
the time of the infraction. If two runners are off base and
both runners are called out, the umpires must determine
which runner was called out first as it is not possible to obtain
more than one out under the look-back rule. The ball is dead
when the first runner is called out, and the other runner must
return to the base last touched at the time of the infraction.

Oh... now that I understand your question, I can answer it. The answer is no. :)

ASA 2007 Rules
RULE 8 - BATTER-RUNNER AND RUNNER
Rule 8, Section 7
T. (Fast Pitch) LOOK BACK RULE.
The “Look Back” rule will be in effect for all runners when the ball is live,
the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher
has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle. The pitcher is
considered to be in the pitcher’s circle when both feet are on or within the lines.
1. When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter
completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within the
eight foot radius of the pitcher’s plate, the runner may stop once, but then must
immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.
2. Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out
if leaving the base.
3. Responsibilities of the batter-runner after touching first base, and while the
pitcher has control of the ball within the eight foot radius of the pitcher’s plate.
This includes a base on balls or a dropped third strike.
EXCEPTION 10-U Class B fast pitch).
a. A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop,
but then must immediately without stopping return to first base
or attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
b. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field,
turns left and immediately stops, must then return non-stop to first base
or attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
c. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field,
turns left and moves directly toward second base and stops is committed to
second base and must attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
d. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field,
turns left and moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly
toward second base is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base.
e. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, and turns right,
is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base.
EFFECT - Section 7-T (1-3): The ball is dead. “No pitch” is declared when applicable,
and the runner is out. If more than one runner is off base, when one is called out,
the ball is dead and other runners are returned to the last base
touched. One runner only may be called out.
EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play,
2. The pitcher no longer has possession of the ball within the eight foot radius,
or
3. The pitcher releases the ball on a pitch to the batter.


RULES SUPPLEMENT
34. LOOK-BACK RULE (Fast Pitch) (Rule 8 Section 7 T).
When a runner is legitimately off base after a pitch, or as a result of a batter completing
their turn at bat, and is stationary when the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runner
MUST immediately attempt to advance to the next base or immediately return to the base left.
The responsibility is entirely on the runner. There is no obligation on the pitcher to look, fake or throw.
A. The “look back” rule does not go into effect for any runner until the batter-runner touches
first base or is called out, and the pitcher has control of the ball within the eight foot radius circle.
B. Failure to immediately proceed to the next base or return to their original base after the
pitcher has the ball within the circle results in the runner being called out.
C. Once the runner returns or stops at any base for any reason, the runner is out if they leave that base.
EXCEPTION B-C: A runner will not be declared out when:
1. A play is made on another runner, or
2. The pitcher leaves the circle or drops the ball, or
3. The pitcher releases the ball to the batter, or
4. The pitcher places the ball under their arm or between their legs to free both hands to fix their
uniform, hair, etc. The ball is not controlled unless it is held in the glove or hand.
Once the pitcher controls the ball again in the glove or hand, the “Look Back” rule is again in effect.
D. If multiple runners are off base and more than one umpire calls a runner out,
the umpires must determine which runner was called out first and return the other runner(s)
to the base they left. When a runner is declared out in this situation, the ball is dead.
It is impossible to call two outs on the “look back” rule.
E. A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is an infielder and runners can leave their base.
If runners leave their base, the same rule applies while the pitcher holds the ball in the circle:
once the runner stops, they must decide which way to continue or be called out.
F. A base on balls or a dropped third strike is treated as a batted ball if the batter-runner
continues past first base without stopping or stops only once and then immediately moves one way
or the other. However, if the runner stops at first base and then steps off the base after
the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runner is out.
G. Batter-runners overrunning first base can not start back to the base, and before reaching first
advance to second base. If a batter-runner commits to first base, moving toward first base,
the runner must return to that base.
The batter-runner may not change their mind and advance to second base once they have started
moving directly to first base following the overrun. If they do so, the runner is out.
Umpire’s judgment determines what is committing toward a base.
H. If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the pitcher receives the
ball in the circle, that runner may stop once then immediately advance to the next base or
return to the previous base. A runner failing to advance to the next base or return to the previous
base should be called out. Making an attempt or fake justifies the runner being called out.
If, after the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runner starts back to their original base or
forward to another base and then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out unless the pitcher
makes a play on them or another runner. When a play is made on any runner, other runners may also stop
or reverse their direction.
I. A runner is out when standing off the base and they do not immediately attempt to advance or return
after the pitcher has the ball in the circle.
J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that,
in the umpire’s judgment, causes the runner to react is considered making a play.
K. The pitcher must have control of the ball while in the circle. Placing the ball on the ground,
holding the ball between their legs or under their arm is not considered having control of the ball.
L. Being in the eight-foot circle is defined as both feet within or partially within the lines.
The pitcher is not considered in the circle if either foot is completely outside the lines.
<O:p</O:p

Thanks
I will now and try and match it and let you know

Tony,

I'm just curious and had to ask:

Did you type all that or did you "cut & paste" from the ASA rules CD?

The previous rules CD I have (2005 version) does not allow copying text from it, and I wondered if that has changed with the newer versions. :confused:

I have the 2007 rules on CD. The CD has Adobe Reader 5.0 on it. I can't cut and paste directly from the CD. Install Adobe Reader 7.0 or better and open the rule book with it. Adobe Reader 7.0 does allow selecting text in a PDF (there is a Select button on the tool bar). Unlike Adobe 5.0 you can also save a PDF file in a text format with a file extension of .txt. There are also programs (some may be free) that will convert PDFs to other formats such as MS Word, etc.

With the old CD-based pdf file, Adobe 7.0 will allow the selecting of blocks of text, but does not allow copying. If you try to save it in another format (e.g. txt), the file will be empty. At least that was my experience some time ago. Haven't tried lately with the absolute latest updates to Adobe Reader.

It seems to me ASA Rules , certainly in this case , are far more specific than ISF .
What it means the rules lend themselves more to umpire interpretation , which can differ from area to area depending on the UIC or trainers .
Still working through comparisons .

I used Adobe Reader 7.0.9. It produced a text file that is 687 KB. I did open it up and the enire file was there.

Press the Select button and place the cursor anywhere in the document. The press Ctrl-A. This selects the entire document. Then do Ctrl-C. This puts the selected text in the clip board.

I opened both Word Perfect 9 and MS Word 2000, did a Ctrl-V and the entire document came through in both programs. It did dot carry over all the graphics and did not retain table formats but all the text including bolds and italics came through. This is much better than doing doing a simple text save.

Doesn't work with the pdf file I have. I'm aware of the keyboard shortcut for "copy", but there is nothing in the clipboard.

The 2007 CD that I received, allows me to copy/paste.
I would not have been able to do that much typing and have it be correct!
I have copied the Playing Rules, Rules Supplement and Umpire's Manual into an MS Word Document.

Not that I am aware of....Only the changes from previous year.

I knew no one was listening to me!!! :confused: