NFHS verus ASA Courtesy Runners

NFHS Game -
Bottom of 5th coach announces pinch-hitter and replacement
player for pitcher. [one in same]. Pinch-hitter doubles.
Coach calls time and wants to use CR for the pinch-hitter
who is now his pitcher. CR is allowed by umpires. Was
this correct or is the NFHS rule same as the ASA rule, that
CR can only enter for the last player who physically
played either cather or pitcher in previous inning?
Bookless and clueless at this point. However, do not think
that the rules are the same. MBW though.

thanks,
glen

2001 NFHS Rules

You are correct. There is nothing in rule 8.5.1, nor 2.10.1, which would prevent the coach from using a courtesy runner in your scenario. Now the sticky problem occurs when the team takes the field and the substitute does not go in to pitch.

Apparently, this has not happened in Fed yet or coaches would be screaming for an ammendment to the rule.

Mike

Glen:

This is from the FED site:

"2001 NFHS Softball Rules Interpretations

CASE BOOK

2. Page 58, 8.5.1 SITUATION L, replace the RULING with: This would be legal as long as F1 is the pitcher of record. COMMENT: The pitcher or catcher of record would be the player who occupied that position last on defense. In the first half inning, it would be the player listed on the line up card since the team has not played defense yet."

The courtesy runner may be used ONLY for the pitcher or cather of RECORD unless they haven't taken the field yet. Therefore, the answer is no. A pinch hitter is NOT the pitcher of record.

Bob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bluezebra
[B]Glen:

This is from the FED site:

"2001 NFHS Softball Rules Interpretations

CASE BOOK

2. Page 58, 8.5.1 SITUATION L, replace the RULING with: This would be legal as long as F1 is the pitcher of record. COMMENT: The pitcher or catcher of record would be the player who occupied that position last on defense. In the first half inning, it would be the player listed on the line up card since the team has not played defense yet."

The courtesy runner may be used ONLY for the pitcher or cather of RECORD unless they haven't taken the field yet. Therefore, the answer is no. A pinch hitter is NOT the pitcher of record.

Bob

----------------------------------------------------------
Bob,
Thanks for the information. I now have my rule book for
2001 NFHS unpacked. I do not at this time have a 2001 Case
book. I have contacted an umpire from another chapter that
I will be working with this weekend to bring me one. I was
not aware of the rule being same as ASA. Our chapter did
not distribute Case Books, and I am finding out what a
disadvantage that can be. I also note that from Mikes reply
he had same thoughts that I did. So angain Thanks,

glen

Mike,

Thanks for replying. I see you were under same opinion that
I was. I do not have a case book for 2001. [which I have
found out is a definate disadvantage]

See bluezebra's reply to my post. I am glad situation did
happend in this fall-ball and not regular scheduled season
games. Could have, noooooo - would have gotten most
embarrassing with some of the coaches I have to face.

glen

While the ruling is basically the same, the only problem with using 8.5.1 Situation L has the coach announcing F1 as a re-entry for the PH. Therefore, F1 was indeed the pitcher of record, thus eligible for a CR.

The portion which Bob cited must have been a post-publication change as the 2001 Case Book doesn't read as Bob posted.

"While the ruling is basically the same, the only problem with using 8.5.1 Situation L has the coach announcing F1 as a re-entry for the PH. Therefore, F1 was indeed the pitcher of record, thus eligible for a CR.

The portion which Bob cited must have been a post-publication change as the 2001 Case Book doesn't read as Bob posted."
__________________

1..The CR was put in for the pinch hitter. The pinch hitter is NOT the pitcher of record. F1 cannot be accepted as a re-entry until the team goes back on defense.

2..Exactly. It's taken from the FED site, and further clarifies the Case book ruling.

Bob

RE ORIGINIAL POST OF COURTESY RUNNER
 

Bob & Mike,

I am going to try and straighten out this mess I created on my
1st post. <b><font color = blue>ASA & NFHS</b></font> courtesy runner rules <u>are</u> same. Since 1st post I have
reviewed rules in the NFHS rule book that were not available to me previously.

In the 2001 NFHS rule book 8.5.1 would not alter my originial post. However, NFHS
did put out a change to the case book on the ruling of 8.5.1 Sit. L.- Sit L Reads -
S1 pinch hits for F1 and reaches base. S1's coach informs the
umpire that F1 is going to re-enter for S1 and then Jones will be
a CR for F1. OLD RULING: <i><font color = red>Once S1 pinch hits for F1,
the option to use a courtesy runner for F1 was lost, because S1 was
not the pitcher. The right to use a courtesy runner applies to the
pitcher and/or catcher of record.</i></font>

NEW RULING:

"<font color = blue> Page 58, 8.5.1 SITUATION L, replace the RULING with: This would be legal
as long as F1 is the pitcher of record. COMMENT: The pitcher or catcher of
record would be the player who occupied that position last on defense.
In the first half inning, it would be the player listed on the line
up card since the team has not played defense yet.</font>

In my scenario, PH was not pitcher of record, so umpires were
wrong in allowing CR. However, just by review of a 2001 NFHS Rule
Book, you would not have known this. Neither would you have this
info if you did not have changes to the Case Book, which I did
not. Did not even have case book, thanks to my chapter, but we will
this coming year, and will surf internet to find any changes.

Thanks guys,

glen

Case book
 

I sympathize with your situation. Without the casebook you don't get "The Rest of the Story" (c) Paul Harvey ;)

We are only provided the rule book (ASA), but I purchase the casebook on my own.

Here in Pa, we get both rule book & case book. I just assumed that all states did that.

I, too, thought that everybody got the rulebook and the casebook. We do in Texas.

Originally posted by Steve M
Here in Pa, we get both rule book & case book. I just assumed that all states did that.
__________________________________________________ __________
Steve, Skahtboi,

We normally do, but really had a mess up this past year. We did
not even test until Jan. Then when the packages came in,
person in charge was gone and it took forever to just get
the rule books. Have either of you already registered? I
understand all that is suppose take place in September. We
lost our President and Secretary. BTW Skahtboi, I am located
in East Texas.

glen

Re: Case book
 

That is all we are provided in ASA. In NFHS we are suppose
to be furnished both. However, we had big problems this
past year.

glen

As for testing, once you pass the test in Pa your first year, you never have to take it again - for Fed or ASA. I understand that many other states require a passed test each year.

In my case, since I don't generally do all that well with written tests, I prefer that. But I do see the value in making sure that everyone is in the book enough to kow & apply the rules.

That is not a bad idea. There are a lot of individuals
that cannot take written test. They have some sort of a
phobia and fear that they will not do well and usually do
not. However, they usually have as good or a better under-
standing of whatever the subject than some people that
ace written test. Everyone of this and other forums that
Steve M. has posted on, is aware that he is in the <b>book</b>
and on top of the rules.

glen

Glen:

What part of East Texas? I call out of the Bonham chapter. We have registered, but we never test until January here.

Scott

I disagree. I believe everyone should take the test each year. Of course, I also believe it should be an open-book test with a group of umpires.

The purpose is to get people to open the book and read about the new rules. Too often I have run into people (including on some boards) that think longevity and experience are a substitute for staying abreast of the rules, new or changed, written or interpreted.

In Delaware, ASA requires a test, open-book. You can even take it home and bring it back in a month. You would not believe how many veteran umpires who get less the 75% correct. DSSAA (NFHS) requires a test each year, the first one being closed book and every year after that, open book. However, you may not discuss it with other umpires as the test is proctored.

[QUOTE]

1..The CR was put in for the pinch hitter. The pinch hitter is NOT the pitcher of record. F1 cannot be accepted as a re-entry until the team goes back on defense.

QUOTE]

I disagree with this. A re-entry is most often an offense strategy. I cannot find anything which restricts a pitcher as to when they may re-enter a game when the option is still available.

But then again, I think the Fed rulebook is so fubar, in my mind, it is not a rarity for me to miss a rule.

My college group test each year with an open book test that we have two weeks to complete. That works out pretty well as the purpose is to get folks into the book. In Pa, the Fed test is a closed book test - that you can only take once a quarter. I'm not convinced it's handled the best way possible as it's purpose is to show that you have enough knowledge to send out onto the field. We're hurting for officials enough that many do not spend much time at the JV level before moving to the Varsity level of games. 'Course in other areas of the state a new official will spend years at Jr High, then at JV before moving to Varsity games.

Steve,

Just out of curiousity, what test is offered for college games? ASA?

Scott,

I am with the Jefferson County and Deep East Chapters. I
live in a small community 50 miles south of Lufkin and 50
miles north of Beaumont. Since I am in the middle, I
join both chapters and have plenty of NFHS/ASA/AFA work. I
am primarily committed to Jefferson County, and when not
assigned by them take games out of the Deep East Texas
chapter.

You ever get the opportunity to go into Ok. and call? We
do about five La. schools at times. They are on the border.
You out of the Collin County chapter, Bill Baker?

glen

Mike,
If test is an open-book affair, then really just a good old
fashion round table discussion of the rules should be just
as effective as all <i>agreeing</i> to an answer then putting it
on paper. Give each individual the books a week or two in
advance of a scheduled <b>mandatory</b> meeting and go over
the rules at this meet. Make all attending participate by
reading one or two questions and giving the answers. You are
saying same thing Steve and I said, "a lot of people cannot
take written test", some sort of phobia. I also feel all
umpires assigned to a chapter should join a forum such as
this. One can learn much from reading and taking part in the
disuccsion presentated here and on others. JMO.
__________________________________________________ __________

"A word to the wise isn't necessary - it's the stupid
ones who need the advice." Bill Crosby

<FONT COLOR = Red>ABOVE IS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE ON THIS FORUM</FONT>

glen


[Edited by whiskers_ump on Nov 3rd, 2001 at 11:32 AM]

Mike,
The test we take for college is based on NCAA's book and put together - as I understand it - by several associations leaders. Some of our questions come from folks in the Big 10, Big East, MAC, and others. So it's not a test put out by any specific sanctioning body. 'Course you know that there's no such thing as an "NCAA ump", we're all just plain old ASA umps who gotten together in an associaton & handle several conferences' schedules.

Glen,

I don't consider a take-home, open-book test as any type of challenge compared to a time-restricted, written exam. Especially when it is multiple choice and true or false. I don't think you can find an easier test than ASA's though most Fed-oriented folks have disagreed in the past.

For the three years I was the association's rule interpreter, I tried to get a meeting to go over the test as a group. I will not use the term "mandatory" as some take this as a challenge to NOT take the test. It never worked as people just would not show up.

Even as small as Delaware is, there are too many people out there with the, "If I schedule it, umpires will appear to officiate it" attitude. There's one horse's *** who has sued us for not having enough umpires to work his tournaments. We told him to knock himself out as our treasury had less than $100 in it and our lawyer would work for nothing. We still didn't have enough umpires to work his tournaments.

We are so short on umpires, there is no chance of any discipline for anyone who doesn't want to abide by the rules. The assignors could care less as they don't make their money if the game doesn't get covered, so they will assign anyone to the game. That eliminates the threat of loss of income to those who could care less about the association or requirements. The point being that there are always games available to work so the umpires can always find a game whether you like the way they do things or not.

It is a losing battle even at the States level. The umpires just don't care. There is no more pride in being selected to work States or even Regionals in this area. Around here, it just isn't the same as it use to be d:-(