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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
How in the world do you get paid without offerering up your SSN?!?!?!
In cash!
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 03:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
... It's not really the rationale of "it saves just one" that leads me to my opinions on the BG check thing. It's the rationale of doing the due diligence to ensure that we are not putting people in positions of trust that should not be trusted with that position....
As I indicated earlier, I MIGHT be convinced of this IF it could be demonstrated that an umpire with a questionable background placed any child at risk by umpiring a softball game. The umpire is not in a position of authority over children in general, only in the conduct of the game, where Mom and Dad and coach and grandpa are watching. It is a problem that does not exist trying to be "solved" in a heavy-handed way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
... I'm drawing the line between the rights of the general populus vs the rights of those unable to defend themselves (children, in this case).... I think it's a vastly bigger leap going from BG checks of umpires to phone tapping of the general public.
Here is where you and I have the strongest disagreement. It is not the rights of the populus that I am concerned with (if the populus has any rights at all in the same sense), it is the rights of the individual being trampled because someone is afraid. And, since I already hear similar rationale being used for much broader actions by the government, I don't see the leap / gap as very large at all.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 03:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
...for the sake of the argument, let's say this WAS the government making this requirement. Not that all adults must submit to background checks ... you, Joe Citizen, could simply refuse to sign the form and not participating in being an authority figure over children. Again - your rights not being trumped unless you want to be placed in these trusted positions.... if, for example, the government made you sign a form allowing your phone to be tapped if you were going to be given government secrets, for example. And no ... I'd have no problem with that policy in that case....
I agree with this as far as it goes. I disagree with how you got there, as noted above.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 04:49pm
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Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
How in the world do you get paid without offerering up your SSN?!?!?!
My error... I meant: do not give out Personal Data (SSN, Driver's Lic) to a third party computer info exchange system. Of course one must do so to get mortgage, employer, etc. for legitimate purposes. But that PD should not be given to 3rd party public data storage and retrieval companies so they can publish to the world.

IMHO
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 06:00pm
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Quote:
And again ... even if this was the government doing this, you, Joe Citizen, could simply refuse to sign the form and not participating in being an authority figure over children. Again - your rights not being trumped unless you want to be placed in these trusted positions.
Okay, let's go in another direction. Many of us have been umpiring for years (40 for me), many which included youth ball.

Never a problem. Now, after all these years, here come people who most likely were not involved five years ago, let alone a decade or two, bringing my integrity into question. Seems to me it's more like these people are entering my world, not me moving into their's.

Did you ever have someone move into your nice town/neighborhood and after six months start filing complaints and suing people because THEY don't care for where you have parked your boat for the last 20 years, thinks the compost pile you have kept for your neighbor's use the past 10 years smells too bad, is upset that the 100 year oak tree blocks out too my sun from their backyard, etc.?

And one more thing. Who is going to pay for something like this? Do you think the national office is going to do this out of their pocket? Will those not opposed to this feel the same when they ask you to also pay the fee?
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 06:33pm
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Over the past 24 hrs I have talked to many local people about this. It is generally felt that we Umpires will just say no to this request. It also appears its just a local thing coming from a new Regional Commish. now assigned to Md. This will not change a thing for the regular games we do all year long. However the Assigners are going to get real grief from the Brass they answer to. Then perhaps? when its time for State championship games the brass will tell the assigner don't use any Umps that wouldn't sign the waiver. Who does that hurt?-only the assigner. There is a clinic Feb 24th and I'm sure this topic will be discussed.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2007, 09:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Okay, let's go in another direction. Many of us have been umpiring for years (40 for me), many which included youth ball.

Never a problem. Now, after all these years, here come people who most likely were not involved five years ago, let alone a decade or two, bringing my integrity into question. Seems to me it's more like these people are entering my world, not me moving into their's.

Did you ever have someone move into your nice town/neighborhood and after six months start filing complaints and suing people because THEY don't care for where you have parked your boat for the last 20 years, thinks the compost pile you have kept for your neighbor's use the past 10 years smells too bad, is upset that the 100 year oak tree blocks out too my sun from their backyard, etc.?

And one more thing. Who is going to pay for something like this? Do you think the national office is going to do this out of their pocket? Will those not opposed to this feel the same when they ask you to also pay the fee?
Now this, as I see it would be my main beef with an investigation. Aside from the fact that I've got a few youthful stuff that a serious check might turn up - and I wouldn't be real fond of seeing them made "public".

Like Mike said, I too have umpired for close to 40 years without any issues along these lines. Now, relative newcomers want me to submit to something to make them feel good. I see it as a waste of time, effort, and money.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 27, 2007, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck chopper
Over the past 24 hrs I have talked to many local people about this. It is generally felt that we Umpires will just say no to this request. It also appears its just a local thing coming from a new Regional Commish. now assigned to Md. This will not change a thing for the regular games we do all year long. However the Assigners are going to get real grief from the Brass they answer to. Then perhaps? when its time for State championship games the brass will tell the assigner don't use any Umps that wouldn't sign the waiver. Who does that hurt?-only the assigner. There is a clinic Feb 24th and I'm sure this topic will be discussed.
Actually, a conversation with this not-so-new state commissioner was what caused me to initiate this post.

BTW, if that is the prerequisite to JO states, I may have to tell the JO commissioner to get his own umpires as I will not have enough to service the tournament.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 27, 2007, 03:28pm
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Im kind of mixed honestly...

For my job I was put through an extensive background check, but I have access to a great deal of personnal and confidential information and public trust.

For umpiring in ASA I think I could skate through for an entire career on the name John Smith and never so much as be asked to provide proof of identity.

Sure, most of us never come in contact with the players on a personnal level, but I personnally know of a 17 y/o umpire that bedded a girl during a travel ball tourney. Most of us dont think that way.. but what about those that may.. like that boy? If we sought it out.. it could happen. We stay in the same hotels over the weekend and we are in fact around them.

Do we need a full back ground check? I don't think so.. but if you are a habitual sexual predator fresh out of prison, you could go to ASA, take a clinic, register with the local Association and make a good summer living off of the tournies and never even provide your real name (that could be checked on the sex offender registries).

So... somewhere in the middle. maybe is where the ASA needs to be.

Like it or not, it is 2007, we are in a position of authority over children and young adults on some level... and you just never know.

I dont know how much it would help either.. and I am mixed. But those are a few thoughts.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 28, 2007, 07:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Sure, most of us never come in contact with the players on a personnal level, but I personnally know of a 17 y/o umpire that bedded a girl during a travel ball tourney. Most of us dont think that way.. but what about those that may.. like that boy? If we sought it out.. it could happen. We stay in the same hotels over the weekend and we are in fact around them.
And a BI on the 17yo would have prevented this? How old was the girl, 17/18? Not a thing would have been discovered by a BI on the 17 yo, so, thank you for helping make my case.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 28, 2007, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
And a BI on the 17yo would have prevented this? How old was the girl, 17/18? Not a thing would have been discovered by a BI on the 17 yo, so, thank you for helping make my case.
Nothing would have prevented it, but the argument was that we didnt need it because we dont come into contact with the players - that is obviously not the case. If a umpire wants to come in contact with a player, especially travel tournaments - the opportunity is most certainly there, so it's not a valid argument against BI (which I dont support btw, a waste of time and money).

I'm somewhere on this, but a full B.I. is not where I am. It's too much.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 28, 2007, 10:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
And a BI on the 17yo would have prevented this? How old was the girl, 17/18? Not a thing would have been discovered by a BI on the 17 yo, so, thank you for helping make my case.
Agreed - that kid is not who the BI is supposed to get. It's supposed to go after those that are previous preditors. Those that are in the system that might be using ASA or LL or even HS to find his prey. I still think it's a good idea . . .
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 10:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer
I still think it's a good idea . . .
Why?

Fear of the unknown?

Fear of the one remote possibility so that saving "just one" is worth it?

I'm still waiting for an example of a real, existing problem this would have prevented.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 04:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Nothing would have prevented it, but the argument was that we didnt need it because we dont come into contact with the players - that is obviously not the case. If a umpire wants to come in contact with a player, especially travel tournaments - the opportunity is most certainly there, so it's not a valid argument against BI (which I dont support btw, a waste of time and money).

I'm somewhere on this, but a full B.I. is not where I am. It's too much.
I don't think this is wasted as a valid argument. Nothing is going to stop a predator. Okay, we don't give him/her an ASA uniform. Is that still going to stop the person from staying at the same motel, hanging around the ball fields, volunteering to work the grill (BTW, are they being checked? They've got goodies to offer), or making contact away from the field? The answer is a resounding no.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2007, 05:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't think this is wasted as a valid argument. Nothing is going to stop a predator. Okay, we don't give him/her an ASA uniform. Is that still going to stop the person from staying at the same motel, hanging around the ball fields, volunteering to work the grill (BTW, are they being checked? They've got goodies to offer), or making contact away from the field? The answer is a resounding no.
Perhaps, but perhaps not. Put an ASA uniform on them, though, and they immediately gain familiarity, approachability, and in some cases trust. Believe me ... right wrong or indifferent, if I were to see a player I recognized walking home from school one day, and offered a ride (I will NOT do this - opens to many bad possibilities ... but if I did...), I guarantee 90% of the girls that recognized me out of uniform would accept the offer. The uniform, and/or the familiarity that comes with working games in a local area DOES remove the "stranger" aspect.
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