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-   -   Here we go again... (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/29481-here-we-go-again.html)

tcannizzo Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:12pm
Last year there was a great TV commercial for CapitalOne credit cards.
The final line of the commericial was simply: "The grid isn't perfect.":D

CecilOne Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:46pm
Dakota and Wade,
I'm not sure what either of you think the 14th Amendment accomplishes or intends to accomplish.

Dakota Fri Nov 17, 2006 01:40pm
The 14th Amendment is one of the so-called civil war amendments. Specifically, I am discussing Section 1 of the 14th amendment, and am claiming that it means what it says. Here is what it says
Quote:
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
In my view, the language is clear. You can argue whether the adoption of the 14th amendment (along with the other civil war amendments) was legal, but that is a different issue.

wadeintothem Fri Nov 17, 2006 03:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Dakota and Wade,
I'm not sure what either of you think the 14th Amendment accomplishes or intends to accomplish.

I agree with Dakota above in post #33 as my position.

Hope that helps.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Nov 17, 2006 03:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Please note the above ONLY mentions the citizens of the U.S. Not being a student of the Constitution, can someone tell me the ammendment or article where it provides to the same protection to any individual in this country illegally? :rolleyes:

Dakota Fri Nov 17, 2006 05:04pm
I get your point, and in general agree with it. But note the use in part of "any person". "Any person" is provided due process and equal protection of the law. However, only citizens are provided the privileges and immunities of citizens. That topic is larger than just the 14th amendment.

CecilOne Fri Nov 17, 2006 06:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
I get your point, and in general agree with it. But note the use in part of "any person". "Any person" is provided due process and equal protection of the law. However, only citizens are provided the privileges and immunities of citizens. That topic is larger than just the 14th amendment.
But does "within its jurisdiction" mean physically or administratively, just present or a citizen?

IRISHMAFIA Fri Nov 17, 2006 09:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
I get your point, and in general agree with it. But note the use in part of "any person". "Any person" is provided due process and equal protection of the law. However, only citizens are provided the privileges and immunities of citizens. That topic is larger than just the 14th amendment.
Oh, I noticed the term "any person", but I also noticed the word, "deprive". That doesn't mean "provide". It doesn't mean that "any person" has the "right" to these in the US, it just states that no state shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property. Enforcing the law whether immigration, criminal or civil is not depriving "any person" of anything other than what they have obtained outside the parameters of the law.

:D

Dakota Fri Nov 17, 2006 09:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Enforcing the law whether immigration, criminal or civil is not depriving "any person" of anything other than what they have obtained outside the parameters of the law...
Depriving a person of life, liberty, or property is precisely enforcing the law. Depriving of life - capital punishment. Depriving of liberty - a prison sentence. Depriving of property - a fine.

I still agree with your broader point.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Depriving a person of life, liberty, or property is precisely enforcing the law. Depriving of life - capital punishment. Depriving of liberty - a prison sentence. Depriving of property - a fine.
I don't believe that is to what the amendment refers. I believe it applies to the abolition of slavery, and forbidding a state to pass any laws to the contrary.

CecilOne Sat Nov 18, 2006 07:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't believe that is to what the amendment refers. I believe it applies to the abolition of slavery, and forbidding a state to pass any laws to the contrary.
Don't ignore "without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"; passing laws that include due process is ok as long as all persons have equal protection. That's what allows anti-discrimination laws, but not arbitrary government/court rulings to be applied unequally.

Dakota Sat Nov 18, 2006 09:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't believe that is to what the amendment refers. I believe it applies to the abolition of slavery, and forbidding a state to pass any laws to the contrary.
You are correct that was the purpose of the 14th amendment, but exactly the same language appears in the 5th amendment.
Quote:
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


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