What's the final score?
 

In a game I was working last night, the score was 5-5 in the bottom of the seventh inning. A batter hit a three-run homer over the left field fence to win the game.

Softball Canada's rules say the game is over when the winning run scores. (No exception is given for a "walkoff home run" where more runs than needed to win the game are scored. Thus, very technically, the final score should be 6-5.) However, common practise seems to indicate the score is recorded as 8-5. This is really nitpicky--and it's more of the scorekeeper's domain--but it could affect a tournament in which runs for and against affect the standings.

How would this be scored in the good old U. S. of A.?

8-5 in all rulesets.

Here's your out though. Even though a game is over when the winning run scores, you MUST let the individual play complete. You don't know, at the moment the apparent 6th run scores, that said runner did not miss a base elsewhere, seen by another umpire and not you, which will end up getting appealled. You don't stop motion on a play like this win the apparent winning run scores. After all 3 score and it is apparent there will be no appeal, the game is then over. At that point, 8 runs will have crossed the plate... thus 8-5.

Thanks for the info.

...And absolutely I wait for the play to be completed just in case an appeal is forthcoming. I do this on all instances where the game ends with the home team scoring the winning run in the bottom half of the last inning. (I've been umpiring since 1978 and I don't recall having an end-of-game appeal yet.)

You're in Canada where the rules say the game is over when the winning run scores. 6-5

Down here in Canada South, the score would be 8-5.

Bob

Softball Canada says the game is over when the winning run scores. You may let all the runners touch home plate, but the score is still 6-5. Or are one of those umpires who makes his own rules?

Bob

No, Bob, I'm not. Why would you ask that - he asked what the ruling was for other codes, and I gave it.

I explained how, if confronted his sitch in Canada, I might explain the logic of the score being 8-5 there too, despite the oddly worded rule. But, since I have never worked Canadian rules here in Texas, I fully admit that my logic may not fly (and perhaps should have mentioned that in the first response).

Even if it turns out 6-5 is the "right" score in Canada, it's still proper to let the play finish - for exactly the reasons I said.

I WOULD like to see the exact rule stating that the game is over when the winning run scores, to see how it differs from ours, and I would be curious if there were anything equivalent to caseplays describing this in the Canadian book.

I would also note that it is not the rulebook in American softball and baseball that gives us the interp that the score in this sitch is 8-5 ... but rather professional interpretations. I even think that a couple of rulecodes (books aren't here with me right now) don't even tell us to end the game if the winning run scores during the bottom half of the inning ... we just do, solely because it makes sense to do so.

I'm still curious to know what would happen if the BR missed first base and it were properly appealed?

Here's what Softball Canada says. (You'll see why it's somewhat open to interpretation.)

Section 5-5: The winner of the game shall be the team that scores more runs in a regulation game.

Section 5-3: A regulation game shall consist of seven innings.

Section 5-3 (a): A full seven innings need not be played if the team second at bat scores more runs in six innings or before the third out in the last of the seventh inning.

In my opinion, one could take a hard-line interpretation of Rule 5-3 (a) and declare the game over the moment the winning run crosses the plate (assuming no appeals, of course). However, the phrase "need not" can be looked upon as very flexible. It is certainly not as rigid as "shall not." Thus you could argue that all the runs should score on a walkoff homer.

Whatever the case, this seems to be a very vague area in Canada. Everyone I know interprets the rule as it seems to be interpreted in the USA: All runs score on a walkoff homer while only the winning run scores on any other type of game-ending play.

That is very similar to the verbiage found in most "Canada South" rulebooks (both baseball and softball). I find NO reason, with just these rules, to make the interpretation that your ruleset tells you the OP is a 6-5 final score. You say you "could argue that all runs should score on a walkoff homer". I would say that is not only understatement, but that one would be on the difficult side of the argument saying that the rules you posted mean that only 1 run would score on a walkoff homer. I see no justification for this (and I believe BZ owes me an apology! :) )

What are you curious about, Larry - the answer to this is pretty straightforward, depending on how many outs there are.

Hmm, mcrowder. I think it is interesting that you absolutely read this as allowing all the runs to score. I still think it's a grey area, but I'm a stickler for details.

The baseball rule book does a much better job of clarifying the walkoff home run than the softball rulebook. (It says the game ends on a walkoff homer when the batter-runner touches home plate.)

Just to play devil's advocate, let's amend the situation: Score tied 5-5 in the bottom of the seventh. Two runners on base. Batter hits the ball over the left fielder's head but it stays in the ballpark. The left fielder knows his team has lost the game and doesn't bother to chase the ball. Both runners on base and the batter-runner all circle the bases for the heck of it. If you were to liberally interpret the "full seven innings NEED NOT be played" aspect of the rule I mentioned, one could argue that all three runs should score on this play. Now, I don't think a typical umpire or scorekeeper would actually count these runs, but you can see how the vagueness might create some doubt.

Personally, I'd like to see all doubt removed by having SOftball Canada rules specifically address the "walkoff home run" scenario.

We meet again! LOL

If the game ends in Canada when the winning run scores as was stated, what happens if in the OP the BR misses a base with 2 out, but the winning run touches the plate first?

If the batter runner missed first and was put on on an appeal, no runs would score. The game is still tied 5-5. If he missed any other base and was put on on appeal, the timing play comes into effect. Since it's no longer a walkoff home run, I'd say only one run scores and the final score is 6-5.

(This is somewhat similar to what happened in the famous Harvey Haddix near no-hitter in 1959 when Hank Aaron had a brain cramp and abandoned the basepath.)

Probably the best news of the day. :D

We would all like all rule books to have "all doubt removed by having ... rules specifically address the "walkoff home run" scenario", and several other things; but I doubt it will happen. Personally, I believe all runners score that actually cross the plate, assuming no third out constraint, but not those who "walk-off".

Simple logic. If the BR missed 1st base with two out then no runs score period.
If the BR missed 2nd or 3rd or home plate, it then becomes a timing play and if the winning run had already crossed the plate then game over.

Why would an umpire care what the score is?

I was just curious to see if Canada was different that we were in the US - since they are about scoring the homer.

I wanted to say that the first day this post started but did not want to be the one to be the smarta$$. But thanks Mike!:D

Because in most of the plebeian tournaments we humble umpires work, we are required to turn in a score card signed by the umpires! ;)

I know what you mean, Tom, even with the wink; but excuse me for a serious reply.
I and many believe, knowing the score and other game situations can affect the perception, and sub-consciously judgement. I pay no attention to the score, often not to the inning; just to avoid any implication that my calls are affected by "getting it over with", letting a call slide or other negatives.

I'm impressed with the use of the word "plebeian"! :eek:

So....8 runs American equel 6 runs Canadian...sounds about right.:D

The ASA rulebook, for one, gives explicit directions in this case. The problem is that it is in a place most umpires ignore.

The question for the OP is whether the Canadian rules have a counterpart to ASA Rule 11.4.G: "When the batter ends a game with a home run hit out of the playing field, any runners on base are entitled to score."

Not to be nitpicky... but I don't see that phrase in either of my books.

Since the game was in Canada, that makes the final score:

eh-eight to five-eh...

A rule book approved by Major League Baseball says this about walkoff home runs.

Rule 4.11 (c): "If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra innng after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored. EXCEPTION: If the last batter in the game hits a home run out of the playing field, the batter-runner and all runners on base are permitted to score, in accordance with the base-running rules, and the game ends when the batter-runner touches home plate."

Why can't softball rules be as crystal clear as this?

Who says it isn't? A home run is a home run. It entitles all runners, including the batter runner to score without liability to be put out save a valid, properly presented appeal. It doesn't make any difference if it's the first play of the game or the last, the same rules apply.

I think you are looking for something that has no need to exist.

BTW, softball board. MLB has no standing here.

But even in this instance I would defer to the official scorekeeper. When anyone ever asks me the score I tell them how many balls, strikes and outs I have and say that is all I keep up with and If you have any question about scoring issues then your scorekeeper needs to go work it out with the official book. That seems to work best for me.

I realize this is a softball message board, but mcrowder said he couldn't find any reference to how a walkoff homer is scored in a baseball rule book. I just wanted to point out that I found one.

(History lesson: Up until 1919 in MLB the home team could only win by one run if it batted in the bottom fo the ninth or in extra innings--no matter how many runs scored on a walkoff homer.)

As for deferring to the wisdom of a scorekeeper, that would be great if all scorekeepers were well-schooled experts. Usually that's not the case in the games I work. Some are quite good, but often the scorekeeper asks me, "Does that run count?" when the third out occurs on a force play. Call me pedantic, but I just like to have the answer ready when the question comes.

I think you misunderstand the full meaning of the word "plebeian". There is no "official" scorekeeper, only some Mom or Dad who does the duty for each team and who is making sure her/his little DD is the top hitter on the team.

The difference between the MLB rule you quoted and the ASA rule I quoted makes the ASA rule unclear in which way? You can't seriously wonder if the batter gets to score, too?

The ASA rule seems very clear. I wish Softball Canada's wording was just as clear.

Because it's unnecessary. This whole rule is pointless, as it didn't need to be spelled out.

Softball Canada does have a clear rule on this, and yes, it is in an obscure location.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I appreciate it.