LL Softball on ESPN, MI vs TX
 

What was up on that play at 2nd in the bottom of the first? U2 was completely out of it. He got the call right, but man did he look like a fool!

Didn't see it. Started watching in about the bottom of second, listening really. Enlighten us on what happened.

R1 on 1st, BR hits a fly ball to right-center. F8 and F9 converge and drop the ball after some contact. BR tries for 2nd, the cutoff missed the relay throw, but it went straight to 2nd base and F6 applied the tag. U2 never moved from the time the ball was hit, didn't make a call, nothing. Just standing there in his shades looking cool. Finally a good 45 seconds or so after the play he makes an out call.

LL World Series
 

You peeked my interest, so I went back and watched that play (Had it TIVO'ed). With the benefit of many replays, it looks like the 2nd base ump went out into the outfield to make the call on the catch. If this was the case shouldn't the 1st base ump have made the call at second under the 3 man system?
By the way, I agree, the very long delay before the call looked unprofessional.

6 umps ...

Which game was it..East vs. Central ? That there was a play at second, U2 is behind second, and calls the runner out who was on second, even though she shoulda been safe as the feilders foot was blocking the runners foot from touching the base? (Championship)

That was one of the worst calls I have ever seen. That girl was on the bag for several seconds before the ball even reached 2B and the ump still called her out. I really could have cared less who won but it seemed the umpiring crew were leaning towards the MI team. There were some horrible calls throughout the game including the play at 1B just prior to the lousy call at 2B. The blue at the dish wasn't doing much better with his ball/strike calls. His zone was everywhere.

Yeah. That play reminds me of an old Playstation game called VR 97' Baseball :D I couldnt belive it. After the play, I thought sure when the manager came out, there was gunna be some dirt flying :D

If I were the manager, I would have been ejected for a multitude of infractions. Crappy calls like that are uncalled for and should never happen at that level of ball. Granted, this is Little League but damn, it's the LL World Series! These kids are some pretty good ball players and they deserve some pretty good umpires.

We must be talking about different plays, Dan and ND. In the play I saw the ball beat the runner and the tag was made cleanly, it just looked like the U wasn't paying attention and didn't realize a play had been made. Also, the one I saw the manager didn't come out to argue. Were there 2 "bad" calls made by this same umpire in one game?

Is this the same guy who, standing in the B, watched balls to the outfield over his shoulder and never moved into any other position even when there was a possible call at 2B?

Alabama,

We're talking about the championship game between MI and NJ so yes, it was a different game. Sorry for the confusion.

I think so, the one who made JL look quick. But as I remember from years ago and a few recent observations, LL umpires are generally amateurs with no training.

Yeah it might be i dont know. I never seem him come in, I know when i do second, any ball to the outfeild im in, where im supposed to be :D

WOW, now THAT'S a generalization if I've ever heard one. I've had tons of training (not that it's done me any good) and I do LL as well as NF and NCAA. I know of probably a dozen college umpires that volunteer for LL as well as literally every NF umpire in our local board! In 2004 I did a LL Regional and many of those umpires did other levels of umpiring as well.

I had a boss that used to say, "All generalizations, including this one, are false.":eek:

I was trying to point out that we might be unfair holding the umpires in a few TV shots to the NCAA/ASA/NFHS mechanics because
1) "as I remember from years ago and a few recent observations"; many are volunteers who are there as recognition of their ability and
2) I don't remember any mechanics training at the league, district or state levels and
3) the mechanics might be different.
Thanks for stating the other side of the coin, and please correct me if my perceptions are no longer the norm.
I frequently work with an umpire who is highly skilled and I think LLWS or Regional level, who does not adjust to NFHS mechanics or practices; and is apparently used to not having structured mechanics.

I think C-one is referring to those who only work LL as volunteers and only receive training when the district brings someone in for a clinic.

Many go out and find training on their own and that is not a bad thing. I've offered the school to LL assns. for the cost of a registration. Though some may be interested, the local LL assn. often kills it because they do not care for the outside influence. Personally, I think this happens in many youth organizations. They do not want anyone from the "outside" to taint the way things are in their little realm.

The one person I have come over from LL three years ago, worked his first ASA national this year. He expected to be intimidated by some, but realized his training far exceeded that of many of the umpires with years of experience 5-fold or better, and he excelled. Of course, I started him out with an extremely good umpire. :)

It's good to know you found one to work with him.:D :eek:

OK, now I think that's a valid point. Yes, we do have umpires in our area that are virtually untrained and they do struggle. Having been to the regional level and hoping to work the WS next year, I know they would get eaten alive at regionals. I do know in our district, we've had the Southern Region come in and do mechanics, but their mechanics ARE very different (as you pointed out). That's one of the things about LL that pisses me off. They think their way is THE way. Also in our district, our UIC and I have gone to several different leagues and held mechanics training for their league umpires. You perceptions are what they are - your perceptions. In your area that is probably correct and some of the things we see on TV do nothing to dispute that. I was simply pointing out that it is somewhat different than that in my area.

Speaking of mechanics, here's something to watch. LL wants the umpire's head heighth to be NO lower than the chin at the top of the catcher's helmet. That's the very lowest they want. I'm watching the Japan/Russia game and this guy is like a foot higher than that. Personally, I think that's too high. I think that hurts calling the outside corners. Do you think that's too high too?

"The one person I have come over from LL three years ago, worked his first ASA national this year. He expected to be intimidated by some, but realized his training far exceeded that of many of the umpires with years of experience 5-fold or better, and he excelled. Of course, I started him out with an extremely good umpire."

Thanks, Mike. Like I said there, you could use him in a text book. He's very good right now and is only going to get better. He asks good questions, listens, thinks, and then applies.

If you have nothing better to do, you might want to read this "base"ball topic on LLWS umpires:
http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=27779

In spite of the poster, Mike.;)

I watched parts of both the MI vs TX and MI vs NJ games, with most of my time watching (and critiquing) the umpires. The call at 2B was terrible; obvious obstruction, but Blue was in the wrong position.

On a tag play at 3B Blue was in foul territory, 2B to 3B line extended. No way could he see when the tag was applied.

On two plays at home F2 did a MLB block of home plate; I would have called obstruction even in the days of "about to receive." But they did not.

I have noticed this year, and in years past that the PU generally looks excellent (on TV). This makes sense from my personal observations from attending the Big League World Series in Kalamazoo the last few years. To me it appears that the majority of umpires are being honored for their many years of service. Which is consistent with Little League’s philosophy of volunteerism and equal participation.

However, it seems that a highly qualified umpire is appointed to the UIC position. This has been very evident in Kalamazoo; as it should be, for Big League is a high level of play. These girls are high school stars, all-state or all-something; play on high level travel teams, and many are college bound. So at least they get someone behind the plate that is capable of calling balls and strikes at that level.

BTW – anyone here had the opportunity to be on national television to be evaluated by thousands of recliner umpires?


WMB

Watching Mich/ Conn
 

My first question is did the Kalamazoo have to play their way in ? Or were they there because they were the host team ?

I am enjoying all the hitting that is going on. We had the out /safe call made by the 2B ump in the 4th inng. I like the homeplate umps strikezone.

The host team is automatically entered into the WS pool. However, after that, they still have to play against all the other regional winners from both the US and the foreign entries. And Kalamazoo more than holds their own. They won this year; they have won a couple times in the past, and are usually in the final game, or close to being in.

Actually, the best team in the tournament this year (Grand Rapids) beat Kzo in pool play, but lost a tie-breaker between themselves, Kzo, and Conn. We play some pretty good softball in West Michigan; Kzo and GR have won this tournament several times in the last 7 or 8 years - and that means consistantly beating the warm weather teams (West, SW, SE) from CA, TX, FL, etc. The only other teams that seem to win a title are from the East coast (Conn, Maryland).

WMB

I didn't get to watch it yet - DVR! There is a bunch of inequity on the girls side of the WS. No, Kalamazoo didn't have to play their way into the WS and the other MI team in the tournament didn't have to play their way into the regional. In the past, the host team has been allowed to enter if there is an odd number of teams so they would have an even bracket. This year, there were 9 teams including Kalamazoo. They were a good team though (beat the crap out of our girls). We lost to D9 from MI 1-0 on a first inning error and lost to Conn 1-0 in 11. The team from D9 was (from reports I got) the best team there when their stud was on the mound.

I heard the umpires were not as good this year as they have been in the past. Were you there at all WMB? The reports I got from several people were that their strike zones were similar to those in Williamsport!

To get just a bit off topic, our local league switched to Babe Ruth this year, and my daugther's team played in the SE Regional. In looking at the backgrounds of the teams I noticed that the BR VA state champion was given a WS (also to be held 20 miles away in VA) slot, the second place team was the host team for the SE Regional so the third place team played in the SE Regional as the VA state champion. Well, I thought, having the state champion as the host team for the WS sounds reasonable.

Wrong; the WS had both the VA state champion AND the local VA host team (who was NOT in the top three VA teams). They played in different pools. The VA state champion did pretty well. The SE Regional winner won the whole thing (and didn't lose a game). However, I don't think the local VA team won a game, so I was questioning the value of them even being there. (Okay, yes, I know, home team fans buy more tickets, but...)

There's no charge for the BL WS. Neither of the teams from MI even played in the MI state tournament. The MI state champ went to the regional and got beat. The host team from MI won and went to the WS and got beat. The host team for the WS didn't play a single game this year until the WS and won. Good team? Yep! Legal by LL standards - not even close on a bad day!

During my elliptical machine workout this afternoon, I watched part of the “Big League World Series” championship game on ESPN2. This is LL’s 18U division. The field was bad (grass infield), the softball was bad (mid 16U level, IMHO), and the umpiring was bad. We bashed some of the guys on the baseball LL World Series crew, but they were pros compared to what I saw today.

For example, U2 made a solid out call on an attempted force at second (as the ball rolled across the grass infield). OK, maybe he was blocked. But after he changed his out to safe, he gave a sweeping “off the bag” gesture. U3 made a beautiful sell-safe call on a girl sliding into third – as the ball went four feet over F3’s glove and into left field.

And what is this “double-pump” sell safe mechanic? (A “book” sell-safe is followed by bringing the hands back together, then back to the safe position – sometimes repeated a third time.) More than one LL umpire used it. Is this a baseball mechanic? Do you use it in your part of the country? (I kinda like it, but I don’t think it would fly with our Florida UICs.)

On the other hand, you’ve got to hand it to Little League for getting their sports televised. Nobody even comes close in baseball or softball.

WMB, I'm not sure if you can answer this or not, but does this WS rotate foul line umpires during the game?

1 - the field was not "bad," it is different. Softball on a grass infield is weird, but they have been doing it this way for years. You would think that slap hitters would have a field day with the slow infield, but I am not sure it makes a big difference.

2. Note that LL Softball changed age requirements this year to line up with other summer softball organizations (Age as of 12/31). So the players are college players, just graduated seniors and a couple seniors to be.

3. Mid 16U level? You've got to be kidding! Half the GR (Div 9) squad are college bound; their top ones are heading to Div 1. The pitcher of a winning State Champion High School team this spring was not good enough to pitch on this team, though she is heading Div 1 on a SB scholarship. At least three girls pitched on winning state champions in the last two years. Several are All-State selections. One of the girls, a senior to be, has interest from all over the country; a CA travel team picked her up to play in tournaments out west this summer. Others played on national level travel teams. These kids can play ball!

4. Bad umpiring? Did you read my prior post about rewarding LL umpires at national tournaments. Sure they are not necessarily the best, but the PU usually is top notch.

I did not go this year; I had plans to be in Detroit and when our local team lost out at the end I chose not to change my plans. But in the past I thought maybe some of the umpires changed. Maybe the bases, maybe just the outfield. Can't say for sure.

WMB

Our girls team played in the championship game LAST year and I went as our district representative. One of our umpires was there working the tournament. He went into the game about the 4th inning on the LF line. He was the one that made the call of the walk-off homer that beat us - ironic huh? That was the only place I can remember them making changes - foul lines.

I agree with WMB on the level of play. These kids can play. The D9 pitcher was D1 and they had about 7 players going D2. We had 8 D2 players on our team. I know that was fairly close to what everyone had. I think if you had seen more of the tournament you'd realize the level of play was closer to college level than 16u.

As far as the fields go? For some unknown reason, LL requires grass infields for regionals and beyond. That's was I was told by someone in the Southern Region when I worked the Jr. League Girls Regional in '04. I don't know why they do it other than the baseball mindset that seems to rule LL International. In their mind, softball is baseball without the mound and with a bigger ball.

Well, the MI team's 4 runs in the inning I watched were the result of a ground ball to second (E4), a ground ball to short (E4 on the attempted force), a bunt to F3 who threw to 3rd about three steps after the runner got there, a single over the drawn in infield, and two wild pitches. Looked awfully sloppy to me.

PU was excellent. The bad mechanics in the inning I watched were at U2 and U3 (and U1, who also used the double-pump safe call).

Not that it's a big deal, but the Junior League Softball World Series is played on a skinned infield. This is the series played in Kirkland, Washington.

After looking at the pictures, so is the Sr. League. I was just quoting what I was told by a So. Regional representative.

I am not sure it is a LL rule; I think it is a Kalamazoo thing. Kalamazoo hosted LL SB WS for near 30 years, probably since LL started SB championships. Gradually younger divisions have been moved away to other locations in the US, but the Big League still stays. (Though I have heard that Kzo’s grip on the BL WS is tenuous, at best.)

Truth is they are playing on a 60’ LL baseball field. It is the centerpiece of the host LL, a quality field with seating for over 5,000 and press box and TV stands. They simply shave off the pitcher’s mound, chalk a circle, and play softball.

<O:p
And they get away with it – because of their long-standing relationship with LL.

<O:p
WMB

Yes, the one in Kirkland is on skinned infields. this is a fine park that is operated in part by the city but is for the exclusive use of LL. I've gone over there the previous 3 years (would have gone this year but they wouldn't let me out of the CCU)...the softball being played was B level at best. Umpiring was actually pretty good last year, but all the guys from the USA working the tournament were also ASA umpires. The one confounding thing is the process of pitch hits the glove..1...2...3...every umpire looks at their indicator and clicks the appropriate dial. I know this is NOT restricted to LL but it frustrates me just the same!

When I worked the Jr. League Southern Regional in '04 the base umpires were not permitted to carry indicators or brushes.

Now that is a little ball "thing". Stupid, IMO, but that is the way it is.

Our evaluators were "little ball guys" (which most of LL is btw). And it came back to bite them on the butt during this tournament. In a semifinal game between WV & TN (I was not in this game), they were tied 1-1 in the 9th inning with TN up in the top of the inning. Two outs - R1 on second, R2 on first 2-2 count on the batter. PU calls strike 3 to end the inning. TN coach comes down and says that's strike 2. He calls all BU's in and all 3 of them say they thought it was strike 3 - but none of them have indicators. If it were my plate game, at that point I say we all agree - strike 3 inning over. He turns to the book (that had not been correct all week on this field) which has strike 2! He puts the batter back in the box and the next pitch is crushed for a 2-run double! TN goes on to win the entire tournament!