Believe It or Not
 

From the 2006 ASA 14A Nationals:

The following are true stories.
The names have been omitted to protect the guilty.

Just the facts:

1. I am U3. PU asks U1 " . . . SWING?" (I couldn't hear the first part.) U1 answers "YES!". Call changed from Ball to Strike. Sounds fine so far, right? The pitch they were discussing was 2 pitches earlier. I couldn't believe that the offensive coach did not ask to go the next step for help. I had to get three stitches to stop the bleeding on the inside of my lip from biting it so hard.


2. Sat 9PM game. Loser gets 5th place. Winner guaranteed 4th and still in it.
Game tied 1-1 after 7.
8th - neither team executes
9th - neither team executes
Top 10th - Vis gets 3
Bot 10th - Home gets 3
Top 11 - Vis does not execute
Bot 11 - Home has bases loaded with no out. 3-2 count on B4. Next pitch is Ball 4. BR goes into dugout to put bat away and then comes back out to the celebration at the plate. Defense is appealing BR did not touch 1B (which she never did). All 3 Umps run off field and get into the golf cart to get back to the house. Defense is pleading with the umps not to leave. 90 seconds later, they get the UIC who said he understood their position, but since the umps were already gone, there was nothing he could do about it. One of the umps was in the 2006 WCWS.


3. Three of the umps at the main complex were over 70. The oldest was 74. The weather was hot. High 90's in the shade. 4-5 games per day. They were dropping like flies. One ump had diverticulosus and had just been released from the hospital 2 weeks earlier. He was taken from the field and spent 3 days in the ICU. The 74 y/o had to be taken off the field on Tue, Wed and Thu. Finally on Thu they told him he was done for the tourney. Glad nobody died, but DAMN, these guys had no business being there.


4. In the house, during one conversation, at least 25% of the umpires said they would not honor a request for help on a check swing. Un-freakin-believable. Then they also said that if they were the base ump who was asked for help, that they would just automatically say "NO!". Just because they didn'y want to make their partner look bad.

I called 25 games. Worked with many different partners. I have a lot of opinions I which will not bore you with except this one:

5. I don't even want to go into the Sunday assignments. Although I did call games late on Sat. I would probably be banned from this board if I posted my notes. However, I will go on record that diversity supercedes competency. Before you flame me, I am not saying that I felt that I should have been calling on Sunday, but there were many umpires who were better than the ones who got selected, and they were also much better than I.


What is my point in posting this? It is to underscore that there is a critical nationwide shortage of quality umpires. Too many men and women have bitten off more than than they can chew. What I mean by that is calling too may sports and too many different sets of rules.

I hold myself to high standards. I only call girls fastpitch. I only call ASA (exc ept for school ball). What I am about to say may offend some of you, but how can you be competent at the highest levels in ASA, NSA, ISA, Pony, etc. plus do slow pitch, baseball, football, basketball? Nobody can beTHAT good in THAT many things. Especially when ASA pays a whopping $20 per game for a National Championship.

Sorry for the rant. It has been a long week.

Rant continues...

I called 25 ball games.
Mon 1 game
Tue 4 games
Wed 5 games - got off the field at 1:15 am
Thu 6 games - back on the filed at 9:00 AM, last game ended at 2:15 AM
Fri 6 - back on the filed at 9Am - but got a bonus - off the field at 11:45 PM
Sat 3 games 11 - 1 - 5

When I left the tournament there were only 9 of 111 teams left.

Sunday assignments: Politically Correct - that is all I will say.

Food: Courtesy of Dept of Corrections - but plenty of it.

Awards Banquet: Sat 6:45 AM at the Holiday Inn breakfast buffet

Pay: $20 per game (up from the $18 that was originally quoted)

Accomodations: 2 per room. I was on a roll-away all week. Room mate didn't mind, he had a king bed all week. The other hotel had a drug raid on Mon night. This chased away all the prostitutes, but the cockroaches didn't mind too much. Umpires got moved to a new location on Tue 30 miles away.

No pay, no rest, no respect.
This is a National Championship, not a Boot Camp.
Changes need to be made.

Wow

Nuthin' like any of that at any of our's.

Your Saturday 9pm ending almost sounds like on of the pro games I heard about over the weekend - but those umps didn't leave the field & made the call on B-R.

Now this part, I will respond to, kind of
"What is my point in posting this? It is to underscore that there is a critical nationwide shortage of quality umpires. Too many men and women have bitten off more than than they can chew. What I mean by that is calling too may sports and too many different sets of rules."

Yeah, there's a shortage. Too many of us are getting older (do we have a good alternative) and not enough younger ones are interested in getting into umpiring. Too many sports - I can agree with that. I'm of the opinion that you've got to pick one to work at as high a level as you're able to and, if you choose to do other games, stay at a lower level. I've got a number of different rulebooks to know - it is tough but can be done. I pretty much base everything on ASSA's rules and try to learn the differences amongs the other groups.

Hate to say this, but this was my first and most likely my last Nationals.

I loved every minute of it, but too many minutes in such a short period of time. Not to mention the garbage on the field.

Irrelevant. So what if they appeal the BR? One out, run still scores.

I would say this:

For every big tournament,especially a big national, Youre gonna have umpires who dont "belong" there or dont really know what they are getting into. So you will have a wide range of talent and dedication (Unfortunately). Worry about YOUR games and getting them right.

Sounds like your local national staff needs to work on better planning.

I HEAVILY disagree with the multiple sport statement (but I have year around softball so I can stay sharp) I think you actually LIMIT your growth as an OFFICIAL if you only stick to one sport...and you limit your knowledge of softball if you only do one (FP or SP)

as for the diversity issue...ASA..on the national level .....tends to have only one color to it....maybe getting others looked at and interested in going to the next level isnt such a bad thing overall. Hopefully it wasnt at the expense of quality.

Go to another national. They are usually awesome experiences....

To start, FP & SP are not two sports, but two disciplines of the same sport. Nearly, if not more, than 85% of the rules apply equally to both games. Doing both well can be a chore, but not a difficult one.

However, trying to maintain a "national" or higher presence in more than one can be very difficult because on one end or the other, just about every sport crosses into the next and you just cannot be everywhere all the time for every sport and it is very difficult to make all the necessary clinics and schools without one interferring with the other.

Guess West Virginia isn't so bad after all . . .

When I first got into ASA, I heard of stories coming back from the nationals in Southern Alabama, where, "we got treated like kings. They rinsed and dried our shirts in between games and would clean our shoes for us."

I also heard stories of a national in Orlando with a new beautiful field, but the building wasn't completed. It was near 100º and the "umpire locker room" was the equipment shed.

With the risk of getting the latter, I have stated that I am not interested in a national whenever folks discuss them with me.

I will let them know.

At ASA Nationals, you are evaluated on how well you do with ASA mechanics.

In another case this week, a PU give a strike hammer with his palm facing the infield. Looked like a dead ball call with one hand. He later lamented that his baseball mechanics fooled the ASA umpires.


Getting others looked at is for pool play and early rounds. Not the Sunday crew. Sunday should only be quality, but it was not. Politically driven assignments compromised the quality.

Wouldn't you put the runners back on base? Since the award was nullified on appeal?

I'm Confused...again
 

How does a run score on this play? No runs score if there is an appeal where the BR is ruled out for not touching first base, correct? What am I missing?

:mad: ugh what kind of umpires are those. dang. On number 2 there...thats bad. BR should be called out for leaving baseline/abondonment, and there should then be one out, bases still loaded. Umps kinda cost the defensive team the game. What is the world of baseball/softball coming too? :eek:

Appeal for missing first, or just calling the BR out for entering the dugout, that just makes one out. There is no dead ball situation, not even for entering the dugout. R1 is allowed to advance home on the live ball. What rule states she has to return?

If that is the third out, you are correct. Read the OP again.

To start, this isn't baseball. It is ASA softball.

Secondly, there is no rule forbidding a runner to deviate from a baseline or abandoning a base.

On a walk, the runners forced by the award are entitled to advance without liability of being put out. (8.5.A)

The umps didn't cost anyone anything. Just because the BR failed to advance to and touch 1B is a separate issue handled through an appeal.

OP: "BR goes into dugout ". That makes the BR out, but nothing the defense can do about the other runners.

You are correct. I got tied up in the "appeal" issue of the umpires leaving the field.

Once the BR enters the dugout, the force of any runner is alleviated assuming the umpires would rule her out.

LL, Pah-lease. Pot... Kettle ....

On a base on balls, the BR is awarded first base, and all forced runners allowed to advance 1 base without liability to be put out. These runners did advance, apparently. BR can be called out for abandonment (Um, what are you talking about: "BR should be called out for leaving baseline"????), but even so, you simply have an out at first base. If this hadn't been the winning run, play on, with runners at 2nd and 3rd, and one out. I can't even imagine what rule an umpire would pull out of his backside to have 1 out, bases still loaded in a sitch like this. Care to enlighten me?

I haver been to Alabama many times, and so far I have never heard of another state that treats the umpires so well.

The Orlando site is another one that I have been to many many times, the umpire room is STILL a metal storage shed though it does have a small amount of air conditioning.

If you get a chance, go to a National and carry water, you learn and get to socialize.
Nothing is ever perfect at a National and remember, we umpires are a NECESSARY EVIL to the coaches and players as well as the TDs. Live with it.
I have been to too many National Council meeting where the opinions are voiced that umpires should be done away with.
Players and coaches don't understand the rules nor do they learn them, ie the rules are unimportant and so must the umpires be.

If you want to work games, learn to blow off the bad stuff and enjoy the good.

This is being said by a world class b***ching machine, so I think I am qualified to comment.

Well, this would only have an effect if BR was called out prior to the run scoring, and even then, the ball is still live. It would take an odd confluence of events to prevent the runner at 3rd from scoring (BR called out AND R1 tagged before reaching home). And even then, the wording of the rule still allows forced runners to advance without liability to be put out - I think you'd have an interesting argument on your hands if this actually happened - BR called out for entering the dugout and a tag of R1 prior to touching home.

But even so, there is NOTHING that would send the runners back to their original bases.

Of course, that is "NECESSARY EVIL"

This is a perfect application of Rule 10. Put the runners back on base as the defense should not be penalized for indifference to the runner from 3rd being forced on the walk. Especially late in Championship play.

Aww c'mon Tony. The defense is being punished for the inability to throw a strike when the bases are loaded and the batter has a three ball count.

Well then, anytime the offense walks with the bases loaded, F2 should tag R1 coming from 3B before R1 scores, just in case BR4 gets called out as in this thread's example.

Does the BR4 being called out for entering the team area negate the force on the other three runners to advance to their respective next bases? (or are they still entitled to advance without liability to be put out?)

If they are not entitled to advance without liability, then why shouldn't the defense try and tag the other runners 'out' before they arrive at the bases that they were originally forced to when BR4 walked, just in case a BR4 gets put out before reaching 1B as in this example? That way, the defense has a double or triple play (in waiting) in case BR4 is put out prior to reaching 1B. Now that sounds silly.

By the way, PU kicked the call. It was down the middle and belt high.;) :D :o :( :) :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: :cool: :p

And I didn't forget the smilies this time!

Smart me. Got it. Thank you.

I believe I already answered this question. Any runner forced to advance due to a batter being awarded a base on balls is entitled to advance to the next base without liability to be put out. There is nothing in the rule which negates this advance if the BR fails to safely reach 1B. (8.5.A)

Wow.

No, that's an obscene misuse of rule 10. Inventing your own rules where rules already exist that cover the situation.

Very Very Very simple - on a base on balls, the BR is awarded first base and all (ALL!!!) forced runners are entitled to advance to the next base without liability to be put out. Don't forget this is a live ball - had this not been the winning run, all THREE runners could have scored, although only the 1st without liability to be put out. Heck, with no previous outs, perhaps a smart coach would tell all three to score if defense was not paying attention. So even if BR is called out for abandonment, and R1 called out for missing home, the next run would STILL win the game for them.

There is NO RULE, and no logic, that would force runners who advanced both A) without liability to be put out and B) during a live ball to return to the bases where they were when the ball was pitched, merely due to a subsequent out on BR - the 1st out of the inning.

Honestly, I'm amazingly flabbergasted that you suggested this, Tony, as 99% of the time you are posting great responses on these things.

mcrowder,

The UIC at the Nationals did not give the same response you just did. He said to the coach that he understood the concern, but that there was nothing he could do about it because the umpires had left the field. To me this implies that there was something more than what you are offering.

Otherwise, he woulda/shoulda said, hey, the ballgame was over either way. But he didn't, therefore leaving the wound open.

As for my logic, Rule 10 allows the umpire to make a ruling on a rule that does not exist. If runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out because of a force on an awarded base to BR. The force was removed. The defense could have made a triple play on this as R1 and R2 were just "walking" to their awarded bases.

I could not just stand by and allow the game to end that way. I would put the runners back on the base and invoke Rule 10. I would defer to the UIC if and only IF the offense lodged a protest to my ruling. Then if the UIC would have told me that I have misapplied Rule 10, I would have graciously made the correct call. But down the marrow in my bones, I believe the game would not have been over at that point.

I may be wrong, but I never advertised that I was perfect.

The term "forced" in this situation is not quite the same as in a "force out" situation. It merely defines which runners advance. With runners on 2nd and 3rd, no one would advance. With runners on 1st and 3rd, only the runner on 1st is "forced" to advance. Only with bases loaded is anyone going to score on an award of 1st.

To begin, the UIC should have been talking to a single individual away from everyone else. Sometimes, UICs need to handle the situation however necessary to calm the coach. It doesn't mean that any official ruling would placate them.

Rule 10.1 is not available as each part of this situation is included in the rules.

It's not your job to determine "how" or for you to "allow" a game to end. Obviously, you didn't leave your coach's hat at home.

If it implies anything, it implies that the UIC didn't fully understand the situation. His implication that "nothing can be done because the umpires had left the field" may have simply been a cop out, or perhaps a valid answer to the fact that the coaches never actually protested until later... I'm speculating though.

There's the problem though - rules do exist that completely cover this situation. Any runner forced to advance due to the BB does so without liability to be put out. period. Nothing else need be discussed.

No, these runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out. It says nothing about these rights disappearing due to a subsequent out on BR that removes a force. In fact, a similar situation was discussed quite a while back - with R1 and R2 on 2nd and 1st, BR walked and rounded the bag toward 2nd and was tagged out after rounding (who knows why!). Defense then threw to third where R1 was lollygagging toward, and tagged - ruling was that R1 is still "entitled to advance without liability to be put out", despite the force being removed due to the disappearance of BR.

What way?

Why not just use rules 1-9 when there's an applicable one, as in this case?

Ok, ok, I knew that one was coming.:p

I just got back in ASA after several years out. This past week-end, my new local ASA UIC talked to me about my interest in a fast-pitch national next year. I just can't get into it.

"Live with it" implies I don't have a choice. My choice is live without it. I choose not to deal with this lack of respect and appreciation. I'll use my trunk as a dressing room for a double header. You need me for six-plus games a day... I'm not using a milk crate chair and drinking out of a sprinkler hose. I'm sure there are others that consider it worth it.

Im sorry...but that is weird there. I may not know ASA rules, but i know that doesnt sound right at with what happended. Game shouldnt have been over right there :confused:

game is long over...I dont get why people dont understand this at all.....Batter runner is out, thats fine.

how many outs is that? ONE, correct? Ok, great. one out, run scores.

Nationals
 

Just had a chance to sorta "catch-up" on this thread. Gonna have to think and absorb some of the thoughts about the ruling. Will comment on that later. About the handling of officials and the actions of some UIC's when it comes to "Sunday" assignments. Pre determined umpire assignments unfortunetly happen. Is it disappointing. YES. May I ask who the UIC was at this particular tournament? I was recently at the 12 & Under A in Bloomington IN. The tournament was great. Weather HOT. Umpire accomidations FANTASTIC. Umpire Care. GREAT. Congragulations to Valarie and all her staff of the Bloomington Visitors Dept.!

Care to elaborate? Why wouldn't the run score, even if BR was called out for abandonment for the FIRST out of the inning?

I have avoided this thread, because it seemed to me the basic intent was to rant about unqualified umpires, poor tournament management, and so-called pc umpire assignments. I'm actually surprised this has generated so much response, since it seemed to me to be one of those things that should not be dignified with a response.

Sorry, tcannizzo, everything you said may be objectively true, still, there is something unseemly about posting such complaints here, especially those that directly accuse the UIC of favortism. I recall a couple of years ago, an experienced member of the ASA NIF posted considerably milder criticism of a national held in the Atlanta area and had her ASA credentials withdrawn over it.

As I said, it seems to me you are accusing the tournament UIC of favortism and unethical behavior. What would you do with a coach who accused you of such publicly during a game?

As to the play I quoted above, it is not such a mystery and surely does not require Rule 10 to resolve. BR is out for entering the dugout during a live ball. One out. Any other runner who touched her next base cannot be appealed for an out. Any runner who touched home scores, unless at least two other runners did not touch and were properly appealed. Since the umpires left so quickly, no appeal was possible. Since the umpires had left the field, no protest was possible. But, getting into the appeal/protest issue can be completely avoided so long as R1 touched home and either R2 or R3 touched their next base. Run scored, game was over, nothing to appeal or protest that would make any difference.

as for the diversity issue

Let's come out and say it. Diversity of what exactly?

I completely agree.

BTW, has anyone notice that the game started at 9:00pm and went 11 innings? Do any of you wonder why the umpires left the field? :D

I'm hoping they knew they had a winner and that the BR not touching first didn't matter, as opposed to just wanting to get the 'H' out of there.

Tom, you are correct. If everyone agrees, I will delete the OP with my apologies. Long week, still not totally recovered.

As to the play, I would agree that Rule 10 is not necessary, but the blues should have answered the defense and just say that it didn't matter whether BR touched 1B or not, the game was still over, unless it was the 3rd out, which in this case it was not.

Good thread, I have learned some very important lessons from it. Hopefully others have too.

Peace.

Well, they should have stayed, and honored the appeal at first (or more accurately, called BR out for abandonment without needing an appeal), and THEN left. Who knows what ELSE could have gone wrong - and the game wasn't over until the baserunners finished their duties, not just R1 on third.

ok, lets just forget about it, and get a ruling from HQ :D

I'm not getting you at all. I was asking you to clarify your statement - which is either just wrong or ambiguous - I can't tell which. Why do we need a ruling on a situation that is black and white.

Let me ask what I feel to be an analogous, but more easily understood example:

No outs, bases loaded. Batter pops to mid-range RF (not an IFF), and in disgust heads straight for the dugout and enters it. The ball is not caught by RF. Tagging runners take off, all 3 advancing. BR called out for abandonment.

Any of you folks sending the runners back in this sitch? Of course not. No reason to - the advances happened during a live ball. Just as the advance home occurred in the OP - during a live ball. The only difference (which protects the runner MORE than the scenario I described, not less) is that the runner is advancing without liability to be put out. If you're not returning the runners in a scenario where the runners are NOT protected, why are you returning them in a similar scenario where the runners ARE protected?

Let me ask another. Say the OP happened in the 1st inning (who knows why BR refused to go to first base and went to the dugout, maybe he thought it was strike three instead of ball four) - and BR goes to the dugout after a bases loaded walk. Would you put runners back in that scenario? Of course not - so why do you want to do so in extra innings?

Dan,

You've expressed your "opinions" on the baseball board (mostly incorrectly), so I'm not surprised to see you doing the same here.

I haven't worked softball in years, but Mike Rowe has shown that the ruling for this situation is pretty much the same as baseball. It's a live ball award. ALL runners are entitled to a one base award without liability to be put out.

I don't know the intricate details in softball, but in this situation in baseball ONLY TWO runners actually need to do something -- R3 score and the BR go to first. So the BR went to the dugout. Well, unless there's 2 outs, it doesn't matter. R3 still scored. In baseball (and Mike can tell me how softball rules this) R1 and R2 don't even need to advance to the next base cause technically they are not forced -- it's an award.

It's not what "seems" fair. It's knowing the rules and how to apply them.

--Rich

Technically, all runners were "forced" until the BR was declared out. At that point, relief is provided the runners.

So it's just another difference, then.

No big deal. I only read the Softball board for the situations and the game management posts, not so I can be a softball umpire.

Hey man, come over from the dark side . . .

As long as you can get "I haven't worked softball in years, but Mike Rowe has shown that the ruling for this situation is pretty much the same as baseball" turned around to softball first. :D

I have great respect for those who have intricate knowledge of the rules to the point where a play happens once a year (or less) is met with immediate, on-the-field knowledge. I don't have that knowledge of the softball rules anymore -- I used to try to keep up with the differences, but now that I don't work softball I don't have to. That's what Mike Rowe is for -- whatever he says, I can take to the bank.

Too many umpires think that they can get strike, ball, safe, out, fair, foul right and that's all there is to umpiring. This play shows that you need to be able to do more.