Saw something on TV that Made Me Think!
 

I was watching ESPN and saw a play that made me think. I don't know if bases where loaded or not, but R1 attempting to score from 3rd, missed home. The catcher had bobbled the ball and instead of tagging the runner, just stepped on home. The umpire called him out. I'm wondering how this applies to softball. Any time a runner misses a base, can they just step on the base for an out (live ball appeal)? It doesn't matter that the runner was still on the playing field attempting to make it back to the missed base, does it?

Thanks!

Yes, they can, so long as they somehow let the umpire know it is an appeal for the missed base. ASA does not recognize "accidental" live ball appeals. What the runner is or is not doing does not matter so long as the runner does not return to touch before the appeal is made.

If the catcher stepped on the base intentionally and not just walking over it, it's an out. They wouldn't have to say "They missed the base" before doing it.

So I could see the umpire calling the out.

It is an appeal only if it is an appeal. Intentional stepping on the base is not the standard. The intent could be for a force out.

The fielder needs to communicate SOMEHOW that an appeal is being made. Sometimes, just stepping on the base is all that is required for the umpire to know it is an appeal. Sometimes, the fielder needs to communicate an appeal is being made. Umpires are not mind readers.

The action of stepping on the base INTENTIONALLY is enough to constitute an appeal. Out is called.

No, it's not enough. PU must know that stepping on the base is being done as an appeal. Otherwise, you will/may have accidental appeals - where the fielder does not know that he/she is making an appeal.

Your opionion is noted.

Nice.

Steve is right, bawls. Your dismissal is off base and could be called out on proper appeal.

Speaking ASA

Not opinion, fact of life.

Opinion also noted.

Having (mis?)understood that the fielder touching the missed base was the correct way to do a live ball appeal, what would you need to see/hear or whatever to know that it is an appeal? Does the catcher need to say "she missed the plate" before/during/after she is stepping on it? Would the same be true of missing other bases, and would the fielder be required to say it loud enough for the PU to hear (one-man)?

Thanks. The more I learn the less I feel like I know.

To me, If there is intent.. if the catcher is just stepping on the base while throwing to the pitcher or accidently stepping on the base in the course of walking after a play, that is not an appeal.
If the catcher is stepping on the base with the intent that if the batter missed the base, its an appeal, I call it. I'm not there to appeal or invent an appeal for the defense .. in some ways its htbt and know it when you see it.

Is an opionion another variety of those sweet onions?:D

Anyway, it's very cut and dried. If just stepping on a base is enough, why not go back to that old NFHS rule and just call them out for missing the base. That was a nightmare for those who were around. Anyway, they need to say something, even if it's "Hey Blue..."

It's the intent that makes it an appeal.

Umpires are not mind readers. If we were, many of us would be doing something else.

It is an appeal play. An appeal play is when an umpire cannot issue a judgment on a violation until requested to do so by the offended team. The umpire cannot just guess what is unfolding in front of him/her, the team must request the umpire acknowledge the violation. Stepping on a base with no indication of cause is not a request, but a player simply stepping on a base.

blu has amended his statement to include the word intentionally ... which I think we would all agree with.

To answer the question as to what it would take for me, as umpire, to recognize this as an appeal instead of just a touching of the base, it usually presents itself. I can give examples, but they would by no means be exhaustive:

The most common is players/coaches yelling at the player to touch the base again, the recognition on the player's face that he needs to touch the base, and then the touching of the base.

2nd most common is probably the player stepping on the bag a second time and looking toward an umpire or pointing at the player.

Anything that leads you, the umpire, to believe that he's touching the bag separately from the original play is almost definitely an appeal.

mcrowder,

I prefer to be called bawls, not blu. LOL.

Yes I did edit my post to include the word intentional.

Does anyone remember the Simpson's episode where Homer saved Springfield from total destruction when he prevented the power plant from melting down?

The request comes not in the players words but in their actions.

bawls, you're adding things that are not being said to back your argument. I think we're all pretty close on this one, but here's the thing...

An appeal has to be made; it does not need to be verbal, but it must be an appeal. If the runner was forced to the base missed, and the stepping on the base is intentional, but close enough to the runner's having achieved the base, then the umpire is left unsure whether that was a late force out attempt or a live ball appeal. The umpire cannot recognize an appeal he is not sure is being made.

The classic live ball appeal, where everyone in the ball park knows what is happening, needs nothing other than the tagging of the runner or the base from the defense.

But, if there is doubt as to WHY the defense is intentionally touching the base, whether that be was this a force or an appeal, or was this the first runner or the second being appealed, the defense needs to tell the umpire what is being appealed. Merely touching the base, however intentionally, is not enough.

So, if a BR passes the base before the ball gets to F3 and she catches the ball and without any indication to the umpire touches 1B, you would call the R out?

Good luck.

What about thios sequence - the fielder touches the base in an appeal situation, then the runner touches, then the fielder says some verbal indication of an appeal. All bang-bang of course, but also if not.

I don't use "proper appeal" as a way of playing "gocha" or "20 questions" with the defense.

A live ball appeal by its nature must many times be made quickly with the defense concentrating on making the play, not communicating with the umpire.

If, in my judgment, the player was explaining what she just did and why, then I'd recognize the appeal as properly made.

I can see some interesting scenarios deveoping out of this.

1. F3 who yells appeal every time she catches the ball on a close play at first, just in case the runner misses the bag

2. F2 who calls for an appeal at the plate after every "scrum" type play or collision (provided no OBS, INT, USC) just to make sure.

3. F2 who gets pulled off the plate by the throw as the runner is taking the wide slide for the hand tag but never makes it or slides too far off the plate to reach it so the catcher steps on the plate and yells appeal even though she could still reach out and make the tag on the runner whose forward momentum has stopped. Did the runner miss the plate or has she just not reached it yet?

We are not supposed to allow them to fish but if they are asking for the appeal, don't we need to grant it?

Let's remember the runner must pass the base/plate to make it an appeal situation.
#2 - good catcher

Good, I hoped you would say that. :cool:

That is a really stupid question that I am not even going to consider responding to.

[QUOTE=Dakota]A live ball appeal by its nature must many times be made quickly with the defense concentrating on making the play, not communicating with the umpire.

EXACTLY. So once the cathcer realizes that the base runner has missed the plate she can either touch the base OR tag the runner. Same thing and there is no requirement to communicate with the umpire because the umpire should understand the catchers intent because of experience, knowledge, and understanding of the game.

Especially when he only listens (apparently) to half of what you say.

I have listened to what you have said and I don't agree with you.

You keep insisting there is no need for any communication with the umpire, yet you refuse to address any of the situations where communication is required.

No one here said communication is always required, but as near as I can tell, you are the only one who keeps insisting that communication is never required, only intent.

I have heard this adage at most of the umpire clinics I have attended: "NEVER guess an out!" If I don't know what they want, I don't want to guess.

While I agree that I can 'understand' what a fielder is attempting to communicate without speaking, I may consider asking a clarifying question (if there is time, IF I believe that an appeal is taking place, and if they players are generally younger than 16U - I expect more from older players)in order to understand completely what the fielder is trying to communicate.

If I don't know that the fielder is trying to communicate an appeal to me, I don't have a call. They are going to have to 'sell' to me that they want something. This will mean vocalization.

Maybe right. Maybe wrong. But it is what I'm doing now. I'm always open to change if there is a better mousetrap.

Body language is communication and if I read it (and not guess it) I am calling the out.

Dakota...again you are the one to lose focus. In this situation as described at the beginning of the thread it was asked if an appeal could be made by intentionally stepping on the plate without verbally communicating with the umpire.

My answer is yes.

If i see the baserunner miss the plate and I see the catcher re-act to that fact also and he either tags the runner of intentionally steps on the plate...an out will be called.

Actually BluBawls, we may well all be saying the same thing. You are just not saying it clearly enough.

The original question was
"Any time a runner misses a base, can they just step on the base for an out (live ball appeal)?"

Dakota, and several others of us, replied with a clarification to the effect of
"Yes, they can, so long as they somehow let the umpire know it is an appeal for the missed base. ASA does not recognize "accidental" live ball appeals."

There must be some indication that stepping on the base was intentional and that the intent was to appeal a missed base. Without both of those, neither ASA nor Fed - or anyone else that I am aware of - recognized this as an appeal.

Based on your last comment/post/whatever
"If i see the baserunner miss the plate and I see the catcher re-act to that fact also and he either tags the runner of intentionally steps on the plate...an out will be called."
We're all in agreement.

What you said earlier seemed to show that you were recognizing that just stepping on the plate was acceptable - regardless of whether the umpire knew why the fielder was stepping on the plate. And a number of folks here read it that way - so, the clarification is needed that the fielder's intent must be somehow shown.

Ummm, no that was not the OP's question. Here is the OP's question:Notice the difference between what was actually asked and your re-phrasing of it?

I agree the answer to your question is "yes." And, as I said in my original reply, the answer to the Op's question is Note "somehow let the umpire know"?

Your original answer was I agree with the second sentence of that answer, but not the first. As I said several times already, the defender can intentionally step on the base for a purpose other than an appeal. The defender needs to somehow (verbal, or as you say, body language, or situation) communicate this is an appeal.

Stupid? What does that say about the statement you made?

Remember when you mother told you "one gets what one deserves"? Well, there you go. And, BTW, you did respond. :p