Have you an out?
 

ASA Rules: runner sliding into base, tag is applied just prior to foot reaching base. But contact causes the ball to come out of the glove after the tag. The ball does not touch the ground; the fielder regains control of the ball in her glove after the runner's foot touches the base.

Out, Right?

Sit. 2 - after the ball comes lose, it touches the offensive player before the defender regains control. Ball did not touch ground.

Is this a legal catch if the ball goes from defender to offensive player and back to defender without touching the ground?

WMB

I have a "safe" call since the defender did not keep control of the ball as the tag was applied. Doesn't matter if the ball touched the ground, control needs to be maintained for me to call an "out".

Sit 2 is still a "safe" call. The ground has no bearing here on a thrown ball. If the defender gets control of the ball before the offensive player touches the bag safely and makes a tag, I have an "out" as long as control is maintained.

Concur--SAFE--- fielder did not control the ball.

I have a "safe" in both situations. Fielder failed to maintain control of the ball during the tag.

ditto, ditto

Assuming the drop in S1 was part of the tag action and not a subsequent activity. If the fielder had control through the course of the tag and the drop was after the fact, caused by something else, probably out.

I don't see how you can get an out in either situation. Unless it's the first inning and a team is up by 20 and you are looking for outs. :p Seriously, it's not a voluntary release of the catch so you cannot have an out. Safe in both cases.

Didn't we have a similar discussion not too long ago?

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...highlight=knee

Similar, but not the same. In that thread we talked about losing possesion of the ball after a tag and the discussion centered about how long the defender had to have the ball after the tag and before losing the ball.

In my case, the defender did not lose the ball; she bobbled the ball and then regained possession in her glove. The tag is made, the ball pops out, and the catcher dives over the runner and catches the ball before it hits the ground. Based on Mike Rowe's position in the previous thread, I believe my call of out is correct.

But then I modified the situation, asking what your call would be if the ball touched the runner before the catcher regained possession of the ball?

Is it like the ball bouncing off the CF's glove into the wall and back into the glove (ala the NCAA World Series thread a year ago)?

Or does Mike's interpretation of tag rules, as explained in the old thread, still hold sway in this case?

WMB

WMB,

You still don't have an out. Possession was not maintained when the tag was applied. The ball not touching the ground is not an issue here. The ball "popping" out as the tag was applied shows me that control was not maintained. It's like a 1B bobbling the ball on a force at first. No control = no out.

I know in NF not only do they have to "hold the ball long enough to prove she has control of the ball" but also that "her release of the ball is voluntary and intentional". Since I am not doing ASA this year I had to go back to last year's rule book (05). It basically uses the same verbage. In the situation - as described - the release of the ball was not "voluntary and intentional". Therefore, you cannot have an out. I went back and read the other thread and the same thing holds true there - if the release is not "voluntary and intentional" it is not a catch (which by rule is the fielder gaining control of a batted, pitched or thrown ball).

Safe!

I disagree. A catch of a batted or fly ball has these control and voluntary release issues. We are not talking about a catch.

A force at any base requires the fielder have possession or control of the ball before the runner touches the base. If the ball pops out and the runner then touches the base before control is gained, then you have "safe."

Our situation is a tag of a runner. I think that you have an out the instant of the tag, as long as you do not lose the ball to the ground. And even there we have an issue on the amount of time that elasped after the tag and before the ball came out. (See old post referenced above.)

IMO, if the ball comes lose as a result of the contact and the defender regains control of the ball, even if the plate or bag is now touched by the runner, you have an out. How many times have you stood over a defender and said "show me the ball!" You don't care if she bobbled the ball, you are only insuring that it is not on or did not touch the ground.

So if you accept the premise that a bobbled ball that is captured before touching the ground results in an out, then the questions is what if the loose ball touches the runner? Is the runner part of the ground?

WMB

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

Is that the same as calling safe "Assuming the drop in S1 was part of the tag action and not a subsequent activity. If the fielder had control through the course of the tag and the drop was after the fact, caused by something else, probably out."

Safe, Safe, Safe!!!!! What if the catcher blocked the plate and applied the tag cleanly, the ball pops up in the air two feet and the catcher catches the ball? If you call the runner out, I hope I am not your partner for that game cause I'm sure I would have to remove 3 coaches and 14 parents from your hinder parts. What's the difference between 2ft and 2 inches in this case?

Just reading this and thinking about it. IF the fielder touches the runner with the ball securely held in their glove, then they should be holding it securely after the tag also. If they cant demonstrate that they held it securely by "showing you the ball" then they didnt sufficiently secure it.

Just my thought.

Safe on both.

Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules.

Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out.

In the OP, it is obvious from the description that the ball was not held securely at the moment of the tag, since the tag itself caused the ball to dislodge. The fielder's ability to regain possession has nothing to do with it. Safe.

I disagree. The rule book clearly states that a catch is "gaining control" of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.

In this instance, they were attempting to remove the ball from the glove and I find that to be intentional - I can't penalize her for someone else knocking it out of her hand for that.

So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

Exactly. Voluntary release is ONE method (and not the only method) to determine of a fielder gained control on a catch. It does not (and never has) mean that there MUST be voluntary release for there to be a catch and/or possession.

We're talking about possession on a tag, not the act of GAINING possession in the first place. A tag, not a catch.

Did I say that? Turn that filter off.

I don't care what type of tag it was, what I posted is what I meant, it doesn't change.

Yes, the runner is "dirt" . Therefore in your situation 2, if the ball goes from glove-leg-glove, the leg "grounds" the ball. runner safe.

There is plenty of rule book precidence for this. for example the fence is dirt. It can cause a ball to be foul, can be climbed up or walked on for an out, Umpires as well can not be deflected off of and have a legal catch made. the runner is dirt as well unless they interfere with a fielder making a play. If they accidently kick the ball or are hit by a ball, it as if they are dirt, play on. I am still trying to understand your argument and your reasoning for an out in Sit 1, but Sit 2 is clearly safe to me.

Dunno about you guys, but I gotta keep this simple or I'm gonna drive myself freakin' nuts.

No control, no out. That goes for a catch, a tag, or a force out. I'm in trouble if I overthink this. :D

It's probably best not to overthink. However, make sure your judgement on control on a forceplay is different than on a tag. On a force out, if they have control and are touching the base, it's an out. Even if subsequent contact with the incoming runner dislodges the ball. This differs from a tag in that if the tag causes the ball to dislodge, you don't have a tag.

I had this happen last night in my first game. Batter hits the ball to SS. SS throws to 1B who stretches and "sno-cone" catches the ball. As he is showing me the ball and I make sure he held the foot, the Batter-Runner knocks the ball out with his shoulder.
1B definitely had caught the ball, controlled it and had the base. There is the out. The subsequent contact with Batter Runner did not change this call.

But I'll bet you got a few howls from the peanut gallery!

That reminds me of a story.
The Baseball Game
A doctor at an insane asylum decided to take his patients to a
baseball game. For weeks in advance, he coached his patients to
respond to his commands.

When the day of the game arrived, everything went quite well. As
the National Anthem started, the doctor yelled, "Up Nuts," and the
patients complied by standing up. After the anthem, he yelled, "Down Nuts," and they all sat back down in their seats.

After a home run was hit, the doctor yelled, "Cheer Nuts". They
all broke out into applause and cheered. When the umpire made a particularly bad call against the star of the home team, the Doctor yelled, "Booooo Nuts," and they all started booing and cat calling.

Comfortable with their response, the doctor decided to go get a
beer and a hot dog, leaving his assistant in charge. When he returned, there was a riot in progress. Finding his tizzied assistant, the doctor asked, "What in the world happened?"

The assistant replied, "Well everything was going just fine until
this guy walked by and yelled, "PEANUTS!"

Not exactly PC... but funny! :D

Surprisingly I didnt have a complaint. The runner had to take 3 steps just to run into the glove. It was pretty clear on this one.

Fortunately!

LMAO! Nope, I checked the filter button is off. I was just asking a question - not accusing you of saying anything - just asking.