Submission for quote of the year, 2006
 

Here’s one I’d like to submit for quote of the year, 2006:

Final game at a tournament this weekend … tie game, none on, 2 out, bottom of 4 … ground ball to F5, routine throw to first … except … F3 is not the bag… foot is a couple inches away.

I take a few quick steps closer to be sure I’m seeing this right … F3 catches the ball and trots off the field … I’m calling “Safe, off the bag!”.

The obligatory uproar from the fans on their side ensues.

First coach calls time … comes out to question … seems satisfied with the answer.

Of course, fans on the offense our shouting out support for my call … “Yes, ump was right, she was off the bag!!”

Meanwhile, their other coach is asking his F3 about it.

So, he trots over and says ….

“I just asked her and she told me her foot was on the base. She is a very religious girl, so she wouldn’t say that if it wasn’t true!”

That's good. We had this yesterday. Lefty slapper, 2 strikes, pitch comes in, she slaps it foul. Naturally, defensive coach asks PU, "Was that a bunt, Blue?" My partner says no, coach is OK with it, foul ball. Very nice elderly woman sitting behind backstop says, "If it didn't go 15 feet, it's a bunt." Everyone, both dugouts, all nine defenders, the batter, myself and my partner turned to look at her. :D

That made the rest of a hot dusty day a little more fun. Later in the day, a team that was waiting to play when she said it had a bunt situation, the 3rd base coach gave the batter signals and told her to keep it under 15 feet.

Hope you told him where to go and pray. Some of the worse trouble I've encountered has come from church leagues.

I had something similar in a HS tournament game earlier this year....

R1 on first, takes off to steal second, F2 throws to F6, I see F6 catch the ball but never move the glove to tag the runner, I call the runner safe.
Def coach comes out to ask what I saw, I told him I never saw a tag. He wasn't happy, but went back to his dugout.

At the conclusion of the inning, same coach comes up to me and says, "My player told me she tagged the girl." I told the coach once again that I did not see a tag.

Coach says..."So are you telling me that my player is lying to me?" :rolleyes:

"So are you telling me that my player is lying to me?"

I heard the same nonsense from a coach in 1965, as a 16-year-old umpire. It was long ago, but I remember it well: "Are you calling him [the fielder] a liar?" Haven't heard the same ploy since, though.

Maybe the answer is, "Not at all, Coach. He's probably just hallucinating."

And speaking of nonsense: A few nights ago my BU called a runner out on a dead ball appeal for leaving 2B early on a catch. Older guy in the stands announces to everyone that the umpire blew the call because "the ball has to go back to the mound first before an appeal."

Surprising.

PONY 16u tournament; I have the bases. Check swing, my partner calls it a strike...

COACH (to me): Can I appeal that?


PONY 14u tournament. Coach appeals BOO during the AB, then after the inning is over:

COACH: Should I have waited on that BOO?

How I kept from laughing out loud after both of those, Ill never know....

No, you are. :rolleyes:

Just last week, I was PU.

I call BALL on an inside-low pitch with the batter checked swing.

Batter turns and looks at me and asks, "Did I go?"

I asked her if she wanted help from my partner.

I think I would have asked for help - PRAYING my partner said, "Yes she did!"

OK -- I'll throw one in from an early-season JUCO game. With no runners, ball slips from pitcher's hand during her pitch and rolls toward the 3rd base dugout. Infielders laugh at their teammate and the quick-thinking catcher looks at me and says, "Did she go, Blue?" :cool:

Best call of the year
 

Here's one after BU, according to a fan of the team that it affected, several seconds after the call was made, fans yells, hey blue, I found your cell phone and it's got a call for you!

Another, first game of a DH, which started at 10 am. Runner stealing 2nd. Ump calls the runner safe! Timing is everything in comedy right? Well at the right moment, fans yells, hey blue, I know you showered this morning, but did you forget to wash your glasses too?

It amazes me where they come up with some of these!

I've seen this in the [I]Referee[I] magazine. The one that I saw was "Hey ref, I found your cell phone...it's got three missed calls".

I heard one the other night that I'd guess most have heard but it was still stupid... "Hit by pitch? The ball bounced, Blue. How can it be a hit by pitch?"

During the pre-game meeting I told the coach that if players were going to were hats and visors they needed to be similar in design. She assured me they were. I pointed to the young lady who was attending the meeting, "But this player is wearing a visor advertising Orlando." The coach replied, "Orlando? The State?" I hope she is not the geography teacher at that school.

Bugg

Quote
 

This is not a quote but it happened to me. NFHS fast pitch, Two best teams in the conference. Bottom of 7th score 1-1 2 out and runners on 2nd and 3rd.
Best batter (player of the year in the state) coming to bat. Coach says he wants to walk her so she goes to first. I explain that his pitcher must throw 4 balls to the batter. He told his pitcher quote " Just throw it in there honey" The pitcher while standing on the pitcher's plate threw the ball to the catcher overhanded like a baseball pitch. IP game over!!

And you ruled it a "pitch"?

Maybe she was an Orlando Cepeda fan.

Bob

Here's another...

A few years back I was working a fall league that some of the travel teams use as their try-outs for the following summer. It's laid back, free subbing, bat as many as you want, if teams are short the other team will give a player to fill a spot on defense, etc. I had a 16u team that was usually competitve against a very good 14u team. The first couple innings, the 16u catcher was missing every other pitch. I took a ton off the hands thighs and shins. Between innings, I walked over to the head coach, who also is a local HS head coach, I told him "Coach, your catcher is killing me back there." His reply,
"matt, that's my shortstop, my catcher is home with the flu!":eek:

And you asked this questions why?

Of course he ruled it a pitch. An illegal pitch. Correct call. Game over. Go home.

Ignoring where the batter ("went to first") and catcher were positioned, etc.; the NCAA and NFHS rule books define a pitch as "... being delivered with a legal underhand motion" and the other books have no definition. Throwing the ball to the catcher is therefore not necessarily a pitch, especially when it is an obvious misunderstanding and not a "gotcha".

I had a HS VARSITY coach claim that the Infield Fly Rule protected the infielders, NOT the runners. And he coached his team to an LA City AAAA Championship.

Bob

The infielders are protected FROM HAVING TO CATCH THE DANG BALL

I did have a catcher come up one night and say, "Where is your strike zone?" I said, "WHAT?" She said, "I was wondering where your strike zone is, do you call it by the book, or do you just make it up as you go?" I simply said, "I'll show you where it is in a minute."

Here;s one from last weekend.

Bases loaded, one out. Batter hits a one hopper to pitcher.Back to catcher for force, down to first for easy double play.

Except batter is way out of lane, both feet clearly on fair side of line. 1B can't catch the ball, of course, because it hits runner in helmet and bounces way over her head.

I kill it immediately, call BR out for interference.

"Blue, there's no way you can call that. There was no way first baseman coulda caught that after it bounced off her helmet."

I swear to God I did NOT laff in his face.

I would have right before I handed him his sign.

Along the same lines....

I'm working a rec level FP game solo, RH batter checks her swing, I call a ball.
Somebody shouts "go for help, Blue!" I'm having a pretty good time with this game, coaches are low-key, focusing more on instructing and helping the girls have fun, so I decide to have a little fun, too.

I pull off my mask, point down at the first base coach and yell "DID SHE GO?!?" Without hesitation, the coach yells back "YES!" and gives me the hammer!

After I did a double take, I said "OK", adjusted my count, and went back for the next pitch.

I think it took the first base coach about 30 seconds to realize that he had just called a strike on his own batter! :eek:

When something is not legal it is illegal. So you call an illegal pitch.

My point with my full post

"Ignoring where the batter ("went to first") and catcher were positioned, etc.; the NCAA and NFHS rule books define a pitch as "... being delivered with a legal underhand motion" and the other books have no definition. Throwing the ball to the catcher is therefore not necessarily a pitch, especially when it is an obvious misunderstanding and not a "gotcha"."

was whether it was a pitch at all if it was not underhand.

Cecil,

I assume now, as I did before, that you meant you cannot have a pitch without the batter and catcher occupying their respective position at the time of the pitch.

If we are not dealing with the position of the pitcher and catcher, and assuming catcher is in the catcher's box (which is true 99.9% of the time)...

If pitcher is touching the pitching plate with both feet, she is now a pitcher; if hands touch and separate without removing from the pitching plate, we have a pitch. If overhand, or even not thrown at all, it is an illegal pitch.

I was also commenting on the "gotcha" approach, especially on a game deciding play; as opposed to common sense and preventive umpiring.

Mens FP ASA

Bang bang at 1st.. ring the BR up.

BR "Oh My God blue I was safe by a mile!!!"

Me BU "Thats an i out I got an out"

BR "NOW WAY! That cant be, I thought tie base went to the runner".

Last Tuesday's 16-U girls Fastpitch; batter is 5'10" or so. I called a pitch just below the knees a ball and get a grunt from the catcher. After the batter's turn at bat, kind of in passing more than arguing,

CATCHER: How could you call that one pitch a ball?
ME: I can't call it that low. That's a tall girl.
CATCHER: (Sigh) Well, that's not MY problem.

Y'all probably know the type... the catcher that tries to get the umpires to join in the team's fifth inning "Chicken Dance" routine.

So....did you join them?

The girls followed her coaches direction. She walked the player but in doing so she threw an illegal pitch and decided the game.

This is not an opportunity for preventitive umpiring but an opportunity to enforce a rule and go home.

AMEN...we are NOT out there to coach! I have another example:

16u PONY tournament...in the 6th inning, coach A puts in a CR for the C. Now I KNOW that he has already used all his bench players..BUT..I do not say a WORD..sure enough, after the one pitch, coach B starts going 'hey blue!' THEN I pull out the lineup..go through the motions of looking it over, and then bangs out that CR (and disqualifies of course!) for the infraction...The point being, it is the job of these coaches to know the rules..especially on the travel team level,where there is serious $$ involved.If you want me to coach too, pay me more than the $xx a game I am being paid to just umpire.

by the way blu....GREAT name! ;)

That wouldn't be coaching, that would be doing YOUR job. There is no reason to accept an illegal substitution, and it was your job to say that was an illegal substitution. It can't happen accidently if you are doing your job; and should never happen knowingly on your part.

Sorry, I disagree completely with your example.

Me too. Thank you for the voice of reason.

A cute quote some of you may have experienced:

Banger at first and I sell the out. Before I am even done-

BR "But I am faster than I look, blue!!!"

Disagree. I may ask the coach if he/she is sure they want to do it but then stop there.

Why should I take an opportunity from the defense to get an out because they were on their toes and the offense wasn't?

With a runner on base and a fly ball to the outfield, do you tell the runner when she can leave on a tag-up? It's the same thing. You would be preventing an out from possible being awarded to the defense if they appealed a runner leaving early on a fcaught lyball.

Giving a coach feedback when they ask if they can do something is one thing but giving counsel without being asked is another.

No, it isn't. The difference is that with a CR you should be taking out your lineup card and noting the change. If you knowingly make note of an illegal change, you are not doing your job. You now have an illegal lineup card in your pocket that you created.

Now, if the umpire screws up and unknowingly allows an illegal sub, CR, or lineup, then the coach and his team are the ones who will pay the penalty if the opponents notice, but it is still the umpire who screwed up.

In our Assoc. The BU is responsible for tracking courtesy runners. This would leave us open to the possibility cited above since the PU with the lineup card does not note that. I will be talking to our clinician about that.

What is an illegal lineup card?

The umpires lineup card is a reference tool, not an official document. Unlike Minnesota ASA, most organizations do not require the turning in of a line up card.

The home teams book is the official reference of record.

A team can do anything they want to the lineup. They can bat out of order, they can enter illegal and unreported substitutions as much as they want until the other team says something about their actions.

As an umpire, the only substitution you shouldn't allow is a player who has been ejected or confined to the bench.

There are penalties for illegal subs in every rule book and they are there to penalize the offending team and reward the team offended.

Wow!! And, to think Emily spent all that effort creating a system of lineup card management for something that is only a reference tool.

Not sure where you umpire, blu_bawls, but start clicking your heels; time to go home.

It is a reference tool. Tell me where have you ever had someone use the lineup card as an official record of a game? It doesn't record pitch counts, bb, hits, errors or anything else relevant to the game.

Management is one thing and Emily has done a good job with that but the final tally comes down to the home teams book unless an official scorekeeper/book person is employed.

You have to place more of the responsibility on the coach than you do on the umpire. The umpire enforces the rules. He/she does not coach within them.

I am sure others will come back here with comments about surviving on the field but this is not about surviving. The coach will learn from his/her mistake when the other team brings it to the umpires attention.

If a coach comes to me in this situation and says "Can I put #7 in as CR for F1" I will say "No and give the explanation.".

If the same coach in the same situation yells out "#7 is coutesy runner for F1" and sends #7 to the base I am going to note the change and play on and let the pieces fall where they may.

A line-up card is a reference tool.

It is also the official batting order, which makes it the legal record for the purposes of the rules relating to the batting line-up, substitutions and reentries, not to mention potential protests.

Thank you for making the argument for the other side. As much as I like getting 42 outs as quickly as possible...I will do my best to not allow a coach to do something like this contrary to the rules.

If they INSIST, that's one thing, but I will lead them away from the path to perdition as much as possible.

I am not out there to coach...but I am out there to maintain the integrity of the game. Preventative umpiring is part of that.

And as far as being the one who tallies the runs, what say you if, for instance, a runner misses the plate. The scorekeeper (home book or someone employed to keep the book) marks the run. Then you have a proper, legal appeal. Do you somehow tell the scorekeeper that run didn't score (by calling the runner out through some pronouncement)? Of course you do (at least I hope so).

As an amateur baseball historian, I would throw a reference at ya from 98 years ago, Cubs v. Giants. Hank O' Day was base umpire, Bill Emslie was PU. Bases loaded for Giants. Ball hit to outfield. Runner from third scores. In the ensuing celebration, Fred Merkle didn't go to second - he stopped and joined in the celebration. Cubs retreieved a ball (likely not the game ball, but who knows) and tag second base after getting O'Day's attention.

Only people who knew the score were O'Day and Emslie. Went down as a tie, teams tie for the pennant, Cubs win Cubs win Cubs win in a playoff - all becaue an umpire cared enough to do his job.

OK, I've gone off on a tangent, but my point is that your lineup is much more than a piece of paper. You may not be the scorekeeper, but you are the gatekeeper. No one comes in or out of the game without coming through you. No one scores unless you say they score. No one is safe or out or hits fair or foul unless YOU say they do.

My humble advice is to be very assertive in not letting folks hang themselves - within reason.

I like CR tracking by BU, too. It's still a change that must be reported and it's on the mental lineup card, if not on the written one.

Now this is common sense and good game management.;)

Good post John,
I wish that I would have had an opportunity to work with you at a National or something.

Thank you Scott. It would be my pleasure.

Actually, its a copy of the official line ups. The official line ups are in the team books with thte home team being the official book.

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

Now THAT'S funny!

OK, when you take the line-up from the coach do you say - this is official? All I can go by is the line up they give me at the plate meeting. If a coach comes up and has a starter that is out of the game and wants to put her in a differents spot in the order - would you allow that? What if they insist? It's called preventative umpiring. I do that from time to time. If I see a pitcher doing something illegal during warmups, I might tell the catcher to go tell her to correct it before I have to. If a player comes to bat and I see an illegal bat in her hands, I'll send her to get another one. If a coach wants to make an illegal substitution, I'm going to say, "Coach, you can't do that."

Maybe I'm alone in this, but that's what I do.

Ive seen mens FP pitchers warm up by pitching from 2nd base..

Many .. maybe most pitchers pitch illegally during warm ups. They are just warming up. I dont believe you can judge a pitcher by warmups.

I don't agree. There are pitchers who do warm up from behind the PP but they are the experienced and usually better pitchers that use the run up method. Your average pitcher throws her warm ups just like she pitches and you can see the illegal stuff during warm ups. I usually don't warn them when I see it. I am not the coach. I am the ENFORCER.:D

ASA 4-1-A(1), which says in part,ASA 7-2-AASA 7-2-BASA 5-6-AASA 8-10-GThe aggregate of all of these makes the umpire's line-up card just a smidge more important than a mere copy. It is the original (where originally submitted by the team manager; where changes are originally made by the plate umpire). The score book is the copy. Especially in the 99% of the games that do not have an impartial official scorekeeper.

Let's add the ASA Umpire manual, which states (Pregame Ground Rules),
And, finally,

Piggyback thought. Ever wonder why, in ITB, it is the responsibility of the umpire to advise the teams which runner starts at 2nd base. Or why, if the wrong runner is used, the runner is simply replaced without penalty??

Because the umpire has the official lineup card!!

Probably correct, if you are working a 12U rec league game with some pitcher who can barely pitch as it is, they are probably warming up the way they pitch and its probably ok to let the catcher or coach between innings - but I think at any decent level or travel ball you shouldnt be "coaching".

Agreed.

The pitchers that pitch illegally during warmups tend to be either very experienced (leave 'em alone), or inexperienced / rec level (you may want to mention it to the coach). And, in either case, in any tournament play that matters, leave 'em alone. If they are playing there, they should know the rules.

As teams first make the transition from high school to ASA travel, I do remind pitchers who warm up with NFHS mechanics "two feet on the pitching plate here". Not much else; that one is too much of a "gotcha", IMO, to leave unsaid.

Actually you can do that without a lineup card. You check the official book.

Now I don't see anywhere where the expression "official" is used to describe the lineup card. The only thing I find is official book.

Please advise.

OK. Asa says it is. What does NFHS say?

NFHS 3-1-3

... Lineups become official after they have been exchanged, verified and then accepted by the plate umpire during the pregame conference.

Emphasis added.

Looks like NFHS agrees with ASA.

I think this entire discussion has gotten way out of hand in order to attempt to decide something that is basically common sense. Why would you let someone do something illegal, when you have the ability to stop them? Although some may feel that there is a thin line between 'coaching the coach' and 'preventative umpiring', I don't believe that informing the coach that they are attempting to do something illegal is outside our scope as impartial judges of the contest.