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greymule Fri Jun 16, 2006 01:37pm

Rule on this one.
 
Bases loaded, 2 out.

BR hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, and proceeds around the bases. With the ball still being kicked around in the outfield, BR, though he had a clear path to home plate, deliberately crashes F2, knocking him 15 feet, and then touches the plate.

You call BR out for the deliberate USC crash and eject him.

The defense then appeals BR's miss of 1B.

What would your ruling be?

baldgriff Fri Jun 16, 2006 01:40pm

I dont believe you have another out, however, the defense did just save giving up 4 runs.

Rattlehead Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:06pm

ring up the BR out for missing 1b on appeal, no runs score. BR is still watching the rest of the game(maybe a few more) from the parking lot.

fastpitch Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldgriff
I dont believe you have another out, however, the defense did just save giving up 4 runs.

4 or 3 - says he was ejected before touching the plate?

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastpitch
4 or 3 - says he was ejected before touching the plate?

You don't eject a player until the play is complete.

fastpitch Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:27pm

so the run counts even though he was ejected - given no appeal is made of missing 1B?

Rattlehead Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:48pm

If there was no appeal at 1B then act that he commited was prior to him touching the plate. He would be out and ejected due to USC. Three runs would score.

Dakota Fri Jun 16, 2006 03:03pm

My guess is greymule is poking at the issue of 4th out appeal only on a runner who has scored.

In the situation, once the play is complete, the umpire will most likely eject the BR. The umpire can also declare the BR out and nullify the run scored by the BR (ASA case play 10.8-1) for flagrant misconduct.

So, suppose the umpire does this. Now, the BR has no longer scored. Hence, the 4th out appeal may not be honored by rule.

I'd honor it anyway under the circumstances. I'd use 10-1-L to reverse the OUT call on the BR (but not the ejection), and then enforce the 4th out appeal. No runs score.

baldgriff Fri Jun 16, 2006 03:10pm

My take on this one is this: The defense should not be penalized for an act of the offending offfensive player. The spirit of the rule is to allow the defense to appeal the missed base thereby nullifying the runs.

The player is ejected when the play is over and not before. If you called the out and then ejected him - then he doesnt score and its 3 runs saved on the appeal. I wouldnt even play a game of semantics on this one.

greymule Fri Jun 16, 2006 03:17pm

I'd use 10-1-L to reverse the OUT call on the BR.

Clever way out. I'd have to revise the OP to say that after creaming F2, BR never does touch the plate but gives F2 a couple of kicks in the ribs before proceeding to the dugout. Then the appeal at 1B.

Dakota Fri Jun 16, 2006 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule
I'd use 10-1-L to reverse the OUT call on the BR.

Clever way out. I'd have to revise the OP to say that after creaming F2, BR never does touch the plate but gives F2 a couple of kicks in the ribs before proceeding to the dugout. Then the appeal at 1B.

He doesn't have to go to all that trouble. If he merely abandones his attempt to advance and proceeds directly to the dugout, he's out and never scored.

DSUAUmpire Fri Jun 16, 2006 07:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule
Bases loaded, 2 out.

BR hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, and proceeds around the bases. With the ball still being kicked around in the outfield, BR, though he had a clear path to home plate, deliberately crashes F2, knocking him 15 feet, and then touches the plate.

You call BR out for the deliberate USC crash and eject him.

The defense then appeals BR's miss of 1B.

What would your ruling be?

Maybe I am missing something, but by what rule would you call the BR out? F2 did not have the ball. I agree that he would be ejected for USC, but the out would be on the appeal at first, he was never tagged out at home.

blu_bawls Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:32pm

There is no force out at first nullifying the runs. Any baserunner who crossed the plate before the appeal or the out/ejection would score and the the run would stay on the books.

Once a runner has crossed a base he is assumed to have touched that base until an appeal is made.

2 outs with R1 on 3rd, B2 hits a fast grounder to right field. B2 crosses the base (but does not touch the orange part of the bag) before the throw from right field reaches F3 you MUST call B2 safe. During this time R1 scores.

As B2 walks back to first base, she is tagged by the first baseman who appeals she didn't touch the base. Run scores and the inning counts.

Dakota Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSUAUmpire
Maybe I am missing something, but by what rule would you call the BR out? F2 did not have the ball. I agree that he would be ejected for USC, but the out would be on the appeal at first, he was never tagged out at home.

Speaking ASA, Case Play 10.8-1. Runner can be declared out for flagrant misconduct.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Jun 17, 2006 07:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

2 outs with R1 on 3rd, B2 hits a fast grounder to right field. B2 crosses the base (but does not touch the orange part of the bag) before the throw from right field reaches F3 you MUST call B2 safe. During this time R1 scores.

As B2 walks back to first base, she is tagged by the first baseman who appeals she didn't touch the base. Run scores and the inning counts.

Speaking ASA

That cannot be right. No runs can score if the third out is a result of the BR not reaching 1B safely (5.5.B.1, CB 5.5-8, 5.5-9 & 5.5-10)

DSUAUmpire Sat Jun 17, 2006 08:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by blu_bawls
There is no force out at first nullifying the runs. Any baserunner who crossed the plate before the appeal or the out/ejection would score and the the run would stay on the books.

Once a runner has crossed a base he is assumed to have touched that base until an appeal is made.

2 outs with R1 on 3rd, B2 hits a fast grounder to right field. B2 crosses the base (but does not touch the orange part of the bag) before the throw from right field reaches F3 you MUST call B2 safe. During this time R1 scores.

As B2 walks back to first base, she is tagged by the first baseman who appeals she didn't touch the base. Run scores and the inning counts.

Not sure what casebook you are looking at. 2005-2006 ASA casebok 10.8.1 is throwing the bat in anger. Regardless this play as posted the BR should have been ejected for USC for crashing into the catcher, however, since the catcher did not have the ball I stand by my call that he should not have been called out.

DSUAUmpire Sat Jun 17, 2006 08:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA

That cannot be right. No runs can score if the third out is a result of the BR not reaching 1B safely (5.5.B.1, CB 5.5-8, 5.5-9 & 5.5-10)

Agree, this out would be the result of a force no runs.
Another example BR reaches 1st, steps of the base towards home, ball is thrown to F3 who steps on the base. force is re-instated and BR is out.

blu_bawls Sat Jun 17, 2006 09:29am

The batter got to first base safely and passed the base. Once a better has passed a base he/she is assumed to have touched it and can only be called out on an appeal. Any runs scored prior to the appeal stand.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Jun 17, 2006 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSUAUmpire
Not sure what casebook you are looking at. 2005-2006 ASA casebok 10.8.1 is throwing the bat in anger. Regardless this play as posted the BR should have been ejected for USC for crashing into the catcher, however, since the catcher did not have the ball I stand by my call that he should not have been called out.

The ruling for this play is as noted for "flagrant misconduct". In this case, the throwing of the bat in anger just happened to be the vehicle used to come to that conclusion.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Jun 17, 2006 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by blu_bawls
The batter got to first base safely and passed the base. Once a better has passed a base he/she is assumed to have touched it and can only be called out on an appeal. Any runs scored prior to the appeal stand.

Sorry, speaking ASA, you are wrong. Previous citations apply.

blu_bawls Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA

That cannot be right. No runs can score if the third out is a result of the BR not reaching 1B safely (5.5.B.1, CB 5.5-8, 5.5-9 & 5.5-10)


Reaching and touching the base are two different things.

Once the batter crossed first and went to second he has already reached first base. Touching it only matters if they appeal it. A runner can hit a home run a not touch any base and the run counts until someone appeals that the batter missed a base.

The fourth out advantage gives the defense the opportunity to take an out on appeal that would benefit them.

If both 1R on Second and R2 on third tag up and leave early on a second out catch to the outfield the defense can appeal R1 leaving early and get the third out but then can appeal R2 leaving early and ge tthat call.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Jun 17, 2006 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by blu_bawls
Reaching and touching the base are two different things.

Once the batter crossed first and went to second he has already reached first base. Touching it only matters if they appeal it. A runner can hit a home run a not touch any base and the run counts until someone appeals that the batter missed a base.

So far, you are proving my point.

Quote:

The fourth out advantage gives the defense the opportunity to take an out on appeal that would benefit them.
NOT DISCUSSING A FOURTH OUT APPEAL HERE!

We are discussing your thread-hijacking scenario of:

2 outs with R1 on 3rd, B2 hits a fast grounder to right field. B2 crosses the base (but does not touch the orange part of the bag) before the throw from right field reaches F3 you MUST call B2 safe. During this time R1 scores.

As B2 walks back to first base, she is tagged by the first baseman who appeals she didn't touch the base. Run scores and the inning counts.


The runner isn't required to touch the orange part of the base unless there is a play when approaching the base, so if there is an appeal as you are suggesting, it must be for missing 1B. This appeal is NOT a timing play and any runs would not count, citations still apply.

Quote:

If both 1R on Second and R2 on third tag up and leave early on a second out catch to the outfield the defense can appeal R1 leaving early and get the third out but then can appeal R2 leaving early and ge tthat call.
You just moved to a third scenario which has nothing to do with a force out.

Obviously, your mind is set, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this one.

Dakota Sat Jun 17, 2006 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSUAUmpire
Not sure what casebook you are looking at. 2005-2006 ASA casebok 10.8.1 is throwing the bat in anger. Regardless this play as posted the BR should have been ejected for USC for crashing into the catcher, however, since the catcher did not have the ball I stand by my call that he should not have been called out.

Look at the ruling... what is the out for?

Flagrant misconduct (not throwing the bat in anger). Throwing the bat in anger is one example of flagrant misconduct. The actions of the runner in the play we are discussing is another example of flagrant misconduct.

Dakota Sat Jun 17, 2006 04:11pm

blu-bawls, you seem to be under the incorrect assumption that all appeals for the 3rd out are timing plays. They are not.

Appealing the BR for missing 1B is not a timing play. If that is the 3rd out, no runs will score, regardless of when the appeal is made relative to other runners crossing home.

Same for appealing any other runner for missing a base to which they were forced, as long as (speaking ASA) the force has not been removed at the time of the appeal.

No runs can ever score when the 3rd out of the inning are on the BR before reaching 1B, and an appeal of the BR missing 1B has the same effect. The BR did not safely reach 1B due to the appeal. If that appeal is the 3rd out, no runs score.

I know I've repeated myself in this thread. You seemed to need it.

LIIRISHMAN Sat Jun 17, 2006 08:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota
blu-bawls, you seem to be under the incorrect assumption that all appeals for the 3rd out are timing plays. They are not.

Appealing the BR for missing 1B is not a timing play. If that is the 3rd out, no runs will score, regardless of when the appeal is made relative to other runners crossing home.

Same for appealing any other runner for missing a base to which they were forced, as long as (speaking ASA) the force has not been removed at the time of the appeal.

No runs can ever score when the 3rd out of the inning are on the BR before reaching 1B, and an appeal of the BR missing 1B has the same effect. The BR did not safely reach 1B due to the appeal. If that appeal is the 3rd out, no runs score.

I know I've repeated myself in this thread. You seemed to need it.

THere's no way you can allow any runs to score after a proper appeal of the B/R missing 1st base.You would have a riot on your hands and as my UIC would say "get your car keys ready ":mad: Runner is out on appeal and ejection stands.

greymule Sun Jun 18, 2006 02:39pm

I was in Pennsylvania yesterday umpiring a 16u "showcase" from 7:45 a.m. to 8:10 p.m. There were zillions of teams (and illegal bats) from all over the country. I personally had teams from, besides the home state, Virginia, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Illinois, and Colorado. Seven game slots, and I did six, since the third guy in our crew had to leave early and officiate a women's professional football game in Philadelphia.

So I didn't check the board until now.

I don't see any difference in effect between a third out appeal for missing 1B and (as in the case book play with the changed ruling) a third out for failing to reach 1B, however belated such a third out might be. But it's the concept of fourth out on the BR at 1B that troubles me. If the guy who crashes is called out and does not score, then the miss of 1B, even if appealed, is irrelevant, since a fourth out nullifies a run only on a runner who has scored. But to avoid invoking 10-1-L, let's just say the BR is tagged out at home. Three outs, and the appeal at 1B does not nullify any runs. F2 would have to know not to tag the BR but instead to make sure the appeal at 1B was the third, not the fourth, out. (I can hear F2 after he finds out that the fourth out at 1B nullifies no runs: "Open your eyes, Blue! I missed him by a mile at the plate. He scored easy! And didn't you see me drop the ball?") The BR would be smart not to score, but to get himself declared the third out in some way that 10-1-L could not reverse.

I must say I'm puzzled at the ASA rule change of 2003. They were in line with every other code, so why change anything? Why not allow a fourth out 1B, either an appeal for a miss or a simple out for failure to reach to reach 1B, solely because that runner did not score?

---

Another example BR reaches 1st, steps of the base towards home, ball is thrown to F3 who steps on the base. force is re-instated and BR is out.

I don't know that ASA has ever ruled on that play, but the "force" at 1B is not reinstated in other codes. In OBR, for instance, that runner must be tagged.

IRISHMAFIA Sun Jun 18, 2006 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule

Another example BR reaches 1st, steps of the base towards home, ball is thrown to F3 who steps on the base. force is re-instated and BR is out.

I don't know that ASA has ever ruled on that play, but the "force" at 1B is not reinstated in other codes. In OBR, for instance, that runner must be tagged.

ASA addressed this in April's clarifications:

http://www.asasoftball.com/umpires/c...s_2006_apr.asp

greymule Sun Jun 18, 2006 04:27pm

RE: reinstated force at 1B

Thanks for the link to that clarification. I can now rest easier, as for many years I had lost sleep for having called a BR out on the following play:

BR hit a weak fly ball to short RF and ran to 1B (bat in hand). When he saw F10 about to make the catch, he turned and trotted back down the 1B line. Of course, F10 dropped the ball, but he picked it up and threw to 1B before BR could get back to the bag. I called the BR out based on the concept of reinstated "force." However, in a later discussion of how to handle this play in OBR, I learned that because the BR had not actually "occupied" a preceding base, it was technically not a force play. Applying the same reasoning to softball, I figured that since a force can't be reinstated if it wasn't a force in the first place, I had blown the call. Luckily, the team I thought I had robbed lost by a large margin, so I haven't lived with an actual game outcome on my conscience ever since.

However, I'm now glad to know I was right.

Just don't tell me now that ASA's rule was different 25 years ago.

bluezebra Sun Jun 18, 2006 07:43pm

"...BR, though he had a clear path to home plate, deliberately crashes F2, knocking him 15 feet..."

If I'm the Varsity football head coach, I've got me a new blocking back.

Bob


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