LBR when F1 catches line drive?
 

When does the possession of the ball in the circle begin regarding the LBR? F1 catches a line drive while in the circle, R1 with a short lead sees that nobody on the defense is looking at her so she tags up and runs safely to 2B as she might on any caught ball.

I (just a dad) thought she would be called out due to LBR but she was not; is the LBR not in effect immediately when F1 caught the ball in the circle?

Thanks for putting up with my question. I have been reading the forum for the last hour or two and have really learned a lot.

Matt

It's still a live ball if the base runner is still in the process of moving. R1 is still able to advance after tagging up, (with the risk of being put out) as long as she didn't commit to 1B.

The runner was not physically "still in the process of moving;" she had taken a very short lead off of 1B and was stopped. I was interpreting the LBR to mean that R1 would have had to immediately either return to 1B or attempt to advance to 2B (and be called out due to not tagging up); sounds like you are saying that the act of going back and tagging up at 1B then advancing to 2B is one act that falls under "immediately attempting to advance?"

And if that is the case, then tagging up at 1B would not be considered "stopping at a base for any reason" (I am reading 2002 ASA rules, 8-8-T-2) but part of the act of immediately attempting to advance?

Thanks for helping me learn.

Tagging up would be part of immediately advancing to 2B, it's something she would have to do. F1 catching a line drive or fly ball in the circle doesn't put the LBR rule into immediate effect. There is a play still happening here in this sitch and from what I read in the rule, the LBR only applies to the BR not someone that is already on base.

LBR applies to all baserunners

Why isn't catching the ball in flight off the bat receiving the ball in the circle?
You might interpret the act of catching the ball as making a play on the runner but you will never sell that to a coach.
I am thinking that this is one of those situations that rule writers did not account for.
Consequently one blue might apply LBR to the runner and ring her up and another might see the tag up as continuous action to second base.
I would be anxious to read what IM, AUS, and WMB say about the different rulesets.
I am amazed that she went to second with the ball in the circle.

I hope that my confusion does not stem from having only a 2002 ASA book in front of me, but it says that the rule is in effect when "the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher's circle," so I would think that means as soon as she caught it. If tagging up and then advancing to 2B is considered one act that is "immediately attempting to advance" as opposed to "stop[ping] on a base for any reason," then I guess that is the answer. Is there a consensus on that question?

It is in effect when she has possession and also is not making a play or feinting making a play on anyone.

In your original post you stated "R1 with a short lead sees that nobody on the defense is looking at her so she tags upand runs safely to 2B". I'm guessing that there could have been a runner at third that the pitcher was paying attention to. If so, and if the umpire judge the pitcher to be making a play on that runner, then the runner at first base could legally tag up and advance.

If there was no other runners, my understanding of the rule is that R1 would be out due to the LBR.

Technically the runner violated the rule, but not the intent of the rule, so I would not call the out. We have to remember the intent of rules like this because rules writers can not possibly cover every possibility. Which rule set really does not matter, either.

This was discussed at length at the last National UIC clinic, but no changes ever evolved from that discussion.

Just because a pitcher catches a line drive in the circle, does that mean a runner's ability to tag up and advance on a caught fly ball can be denied?

My opinion is the LBR should take effect when it is obvious all action caused by the ball being put into play is complete.

Unfortunately, only a 2005 book is at-hand right now. Bear with me if I've listed the incorrect POE number.

Point of Emphasis #34 (2005) section E:

"A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is just another fielder and runners can leave their base. If they leave their base, the same rule applies while the pitcher holds the ball in the circle; once the runner stops, they must decide which way to continue or be called out"

This passage kind of touches on the subject, but leads me to ask a question.

At what point on the described play does the "just another fielder" holding the ball in the circle magically transform into a "pitcher" holding the ball in the circle?

F1 transitions from the role of fielder to the role of "pitcher with possession of the ball in the circle" when the play initiated by the batted ball being put into play is over.

The pitcher's circle is not a "stop" button. Runners may attempt to advance when the ball is put into play. On a caught fly ball, runners may tag up and attempt to advance. F1 cannot stop that by feigning indifference and hoping the "stop" button works. JMO.

And my $.02 follows the thought process of the last few posts. The pitcher catching a line drive is a defensive player making a play; the fact that it is F1, and happens to be in the circle isn't an instantaneous transition to LBR status. Given that runners are 1) required to complete running responsibilities, and 2) allowed reaction time (subjective time based on age and level) to recognize that the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, it is reasonable to allow any continuing play as a legitimate play.

To me the issue in the OP is how quickly the runner makes the transition. If the runner returns, tags, and immediately moves to 2nd, I have a continuing play, and don't believe that the reversal of direction (which is obviously required to advance) is a violation. If R1 returns, stops, looks, sees F1 ignoring her, and then takes off, I have a LBR violation. Obviously, as suggested in an other post, if F1 is making a play or faking a play on another runner, this is all a moot point (but giving the benefit of doubt to the original post, there can be no other runner in softball nomenclature if R1 is on first).