Fair or Foul?
 

I know this is going to sound like a stupid question but I have to back up my point and I figured I would ask the group of knowledgeable umpires on here.

I work for a Park & Rec league in the summer and we went over umpiring rules this morning. The question came up if the batter's boxes were fair or foul territory. Some people were saying that the foul lines extend through the box and anything in front is obviously fair, etc. And then a few individuals felt that the entire box was foul, regardless of where in the box the ball lies. Now how I take it, reading the definition of a fair ball in the rule book, as long as the ball is in front of the line, its fair. Yes? Any other mention of this ruling in the rule book?

The front corner of both boxes is in fair territory. This part is on the infield side of the foul line, which runs from the outside of 1st/3rd base to the rear corner of home plate. A batted ball first touched by a fielder there or which comes to rest there is a fair ball.

OTOH, it is still the batter's box, so a batted ball that contacts the batter while she is still in the batter's box is a foul ball.

Correct, complete, and definitive.

Hate to get technical, especially on you ;)
ASA: But it's a dead ball, not a foul ball. 7-4-G-Effect

Try DEFINITIONS-FOUL BALL-F! ;)

Thank you! Exactly what I was thinking, but you placed it in so much better wording than I could have managed.

Even if we can't umpire, we're good at wording. :)

Where have you been all season?

A foul ball is a dead ball.
A dead ball is not necessarily a foul ball.

I think we're both right... :) :rolleyes:

Quote:

A foul ball is a dead ball.

A batted fly ball that is bobbled, but not yet caught, in foul territory by the defense is a foul ball that is not a dead ball, isn't it?

Was the ball in fair territory when it was touched? If so it is a fair ball that fell in foul territory. If the ball was touched in fould territory and went to the ground it is foul and dead.

A foul ball is a dead ball once it hits the ground or an object in foul territory. It is a live ball if caught: runners can advance with liability to be put out.

I know I'm being nitpicky, but follow me here - there is a period of time between when a batted, fly ball is first touched over foul territory by a fielder, and when it is finally caught when it is bobbled by said fielder or fielders. During that time, it is officially a foul ball, as it's been touched by a "person/object foreign to the ground" (Foul Ball - C), but it is not yet a dead ball, as the ball is still in play, and runners may tag and advance on that first contact, and advancement stands if the ball is eventually caught. Correct?

I have to imagine that is at least one reason the word "dead" does not appear in the definition of a foul ball.

I've been busy between a 60 game softball schedule and trying to keep up with 17 credit hours. Also trying to remember why I decided to go pre-med...:eek:

For the Prozac?

It is also still a fair ball if it is first touched or comes to rest ON the line. The line itself is included in fair territory.

I'm married to a doctor, I don't understand why anyone would want to become one.

12 years of HS
4 years of college
4 years of med school (I think)
6 years or more of residency training
Studying for board certifications
CME the rest of your life
Long hours
Being on call
Tons of federal/state regulations to deal with
Stress of having peoples lives in your hands.

If you don't get why we umpire/coach either, it only takes 4 years of HS. :)

12 YEARS OF HIGH SCHOOL?!?!?!

Damn, and I thought four years was more than enough:D

For some reason, the opening line to Paul Simon's "Kodachrome" keep running through my mind! :D

If a player is touched by a batted ball while still in the batters box, I declare "foul ball". Does anyone call "dead ball"?

As for the original question, I always imagine a line drawn from the point of the back of the plate to where it intersects with the foul lines - anything behind that is foul.

Yes, I do. My first reaction is the automatic "dead ball" based on a batter-runner being touched by the batted ball. I then replay the instance in my mind, and then declare "foul ball" and point to the batters box, if appropriate; or declare the "out", if the batter is out of the box.

Either way, I declare the "dead ball" first. I find it gives me a bit more time to consider what it is I just saw, rather than have to react immediately.

According to NFHS 2.25.1.f a batted ball that touches a batter while in the batter's box is a foul ball. In 5.1 this situation is not mentioned. I have a foul ball.

That having been said, a dead ball is a ball that is not in play according to definitions. IMHO the ball is dead BECAUSE it is foul - therefore I have a "foul ball".

But you might not have a foul ball. The ball hit the batter a 2nd time so yes, yes, you have a dead ball and should call it as such. But was the batter still in the batter's box or was she already out of it running to 1B?

I say "Dead ball... foul!" becuase that gives you another moment to think about what just happened. This is especially true if you are the BU, and you see the ball hit the bat, hit the gound, then touch the batter a 2nd time as she is leaving the box.

Steve's mechanic is correct and as described in the ASA Umpire Manual (Page 218 of the 2006 Rule Book).

The ball is NOT dead because it is foul. It is dead because it made contact with the BR. It is foul because the BR was still in the batter's box at the time of the contact with the ball.

Everytime. Then I make a ruling according to the position of the batter in relation to the box at the time she was hit a second time, either "foul" or "out."

As I see several others do. I should have read on, first, I guess. ;)

By ASA - if you say so. I would disagree according to NF or NCAA. I should remove ASA from my signature. Our ASA in WV isn't worth a crap and I didn't even register this year and probably won't ever do it again. There are other organizations (like Pony) fighting against ASA and I'm busy enough . . .

Well, in my neck of the woods, ASA not only gives the best training, but the only training including NFHS & NCAA.

Maybe that's because they received little support from their region. If you are not aware, WV has moved to the ASA Central Atlantic Region (3) and we are offering every bit of help we can. Then again, I have always found that many state associations are only as strong as their umpires assn. Hopefully, WV will rebound.

Larry, by every code in the land (I hope! Definately in ASA, NFHS, and LL) a batted ball that hits the batter after hitting the bat is a dead ball, but not always is it a foul ball. Obviously if the ball hits the batter the a step down the first base line and in fair territory it is not a foul ball. Can we agree on that?

This is not a rule thing so much as it is a mechanic thing, and I think you are making the same calls everyone else is, you are just making them together. First the ball is dead because it touched the batter, second the ball is a foul or it is INT on the batter depending on where this contact happened.

True it usually happens very fast and as long as the umpire is thinking about both calls I don’t see that it matters much if you say “Dead ball, foul” or just say “foul ball”. But if I am teaching someone new I am teaching to call “dead ball” first to make that new official think about both parts of this call in the proper order.

I think more often than not we get ourselves into trouble by trying to call things to fast, especially new officials who are nervous and excited. Calling “dead ball” first then ruling fair or foul is a slow down mechanic just like (as we are discussing on another thread) the “preliminary point” on a fly ball very near the foul line that is going to be caught by a fielder. Once again the mechanic teaches you to slow down and get both of the critical calls on the play (was the ball first touched fair or foul, followed by was the ball caught).

As far as ASA vs. other organizations go, I really don’t care too much about one organization over another. Different groups have different goals etc. I will play by what ever rules the locals want to go with.

If I could waive a magic wand and make it so I would like to see one national organization for youth fastpitch softball (outside of school teams). Currently there is ASA, LL, PONY, AFA, NSA, USSSA, Dixie, and probably some flavors I don’t even know about. So in any one age group with get seven or more national champions, and we have seven different rule books. And we haven’t even gotten to school teams which adds NFHS, NCAA, NJCAA, and NAIA.

Can having 11 national associations be good for the game? With all due respect, LL, PONY, and Dixie (I think) are all really baseball programs that added softball as an afterthought. If I would chose a national youth organization I would choose ASA because they are the road to the national team. But that dosen’t mean I am not going to call other flavors if that is what is going to be played in my area.

Here in Alaska for fastpitch, our high school teams play NFHS rules under the state high school association. But in youth ball the younger teams all play LL softball, with a number of older travel teams playing ASA. In adult slow pitch, the entire state plays ASA with the exception of one league in Anchorage that decided this year to go with NSA. Unfortunatly this has nothing to do with ASA vs. NSA and has everything to do with the leader of that one league not liking the state commissioner of ASA. Now the renegade league president gets to call himself “state commissioner” (for NSA) also but he only has one league. His league championship is also his "state championship" but I don't think you can really consider a team who wins that league a "state champion" when they never play another team outside of thier league.

I am not learning NSA for the same reason you did not sign up for ASA in your area, I can keep totally busy doing ASA/NFHS/LL ball. But if everyone went NSA I would learn it. I would rather have everyone doing one or the other than splintering up the game. Just IMHO!

Glad to see that my observations were not just mine . . .

Of course if they are out of the box and they come in contact with the ball that's a different story - that wasn't the issue brought up in the initial thread. The original question was concerning the batter still in the box. Again, according to NFHS 2.25.1.f a batted ball that touches a batter while in the batter's box is a foul ball. That is from the rule book - the ball is dead because it is foul. How can you argue with that?

Of course, I also think you are right - this is really minutia and we are the ONLY people in the world who get into this. It's funny, we are arguing over whether the ball is foul because it's dead or dead because it's foul. Hey, bottom line - batter stays at bat . . .

On a side note - softball in ALASKA??? Unfreakinbelievable!!!

[QUOTE=Mountaineer]It's funny, we are arguing over whether the ball is foul because it's dead or dead because it's foul. Hey, bottom line - batter stays at bat . . .
QUOTE]

Unless it is a SP game an the batter had two strikes prior to the foul ball :D

I want to go into sports medicine. I want to be a doctor because I've had three knee surgeries by the age of 16, because I've worked as a student athletic trainer and live for the rush of helping those who are hurt, I've shadowed a sports med. doctor and love every minute of it and want to be able to do that someday, I've observed surgery and though it was AWESOME, because I'm carrying a 3.95 and want to put my dedication to good use. I love helping people, I love learning, and I love sports, what better way is there? I considered teaching for a year and a half, but it just wasn't what I was looking for. Don't worry, it scares the pants off me, but I want to do it.

Question: Why did I want to graduate HS? Why would I want to go to college? Why do I coach softball everyday? Why do I play softball that takes over my life for six months a year? Why do I umpire? Why does anyone do anything they do? Because they love it.

One of the best commentaries I've read, including beyond this forum.