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-   -   "Leaving Early" (pitch) to pull up socks (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/26718-leaving-early-pitch-pull-up-socks.html)

Dakota Thu May 25, 2006 12:28pm

"Leaving Early" (pitch) to pull up socks
 
14U rec level fastpitch. ASA rules.

Runner gets on base, and is of the type that sets up waiting on the pitch with her "back" leg on the bag and the "front" leg forward down the baseline toward the next base. She has a bad habit of once she has taken this position, she will pick up her foot (off the bag) to adjust her socks, or her slider, or whatever. Clearly, she is not taking her lead-off step. She is just adjusting her uniform, etc. I don't call it, but tell the coach between innings that her player #99 needs to be more aware of herself while on the bases and not lose contact with the bag, etc.

Long-winded way to the question.

In a game that mattered (higher level ball, tournament, etc.), would any of you NOT call this?

WestMichBlue Thu May 25, 2006 12:47pm

I would not. I don't think that breaking contact with the base is the same as leaving early, WRT the intent or spirit of the rule. I see runners breaking contact all the time, as they get up after sliding, or to change or re-adjust their feet, etc.

WMB

CecilOne Thu May 25, 2006 01:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue
I would not. I don't think that breaking contact with the base is the same as leaving early, WRT the intent or spirit of the rule. I see runners breaking contact all the time, as they get up after sliding, or to change or re-adjust their feet, etc.

WMB

Right, no call even by me, and if I mentioned it to the coach it would be after the game.

AtlUmpSteve Thu May 25, 2006 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota
In a game that mattered (higher level ball, tournament, etc.), would any of you NOT call this?

No way is this called in higher level ball. In NCAA, say goodbye to your last assignment.

IRISHMAFIA Thu May 25, 2006 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
No way is this called in higher level ball. In NCAA, say goodbye to your last assignment.

:rolleyes: What's the difference between this and calling a runner out for stepping off to clear a few pebbles on the field out of the way where the runner would take her first step?

Dakota Thu May 25, 2006 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
:rolleyes: What's the difference between this and calling a runner out for stepping off to clear a few pebbles on the field out of the way where the runner would take her first step?

That situation was on my mind when I posted the question... The player I was describing was not merely lifting her foot above the base. She was a clear step off the base.

CecilOne Thu May 25, 2006 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota
That situation was on my mind when I posted the question... The player I was describing was not merely lifting her foot above the base. She was a clear step off the base.

Still no call, if clearly not for taking a lead. Probably call time, in line with the player's probable thiinking. Don't say no mind-reading. The player is visibly doing something that has nothing to do with the game. Similar to noticing that two players are about to switch helmets and calling time to prevent a helmet violation.

blueskysblue Thu May 25, 2006 04:11pm

It may not be called routinely, however, FED rule 8-7-1 is pretty clearly stated: "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, she will be declared out if she leaves the base". This, of course, is when the pitcher has the ball in the circle.

In my opinion, that's what "Time, blue", is for. Until it's granted, better be safe and keep contact with the base.

I have worked games for several coaches who want that called, both on their team and the opposition. So, around these parts, it usually doesn't happen at varsity level.

Rachel Thu May 25, 2006 04:19pm

I agree with AtlUmpSteve.

Does it have a material effect on the game?

Another question in this same vein. Do you call leaving early if they aren't stealing? You can probably guess my answer.

IRISHMAFIA Thu May 25, 2006 05:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne
Still no call, if clearly not for taking a lead. Probably call time, in line with the player's probable thiinking. Don't say no mind-reading. The player is visibly doing something that has nothing to do with the game. Similar to noticing that two players are about to switch helmets and calling time to prevent a helmet violation.

Agree with the preventive umpiring measure of just calling time if you see this.

However, I don't believe the umpire who made the call against UCLA a few years back took any grief. If I remember correctly, Enquist seemed more frustrated with the player than angry at the umpire.

Reason you kill the play is that even though the move may look innocent, at what point do you determine it is okay and not a ploy trying to get a slight jump?

UmpireErnie Thu May 25, 2006 06:33pm

Sounds like good old fashion judgment call time to me. If F1, F2, the batter, and I are all ready and in position and a runner is not paying attention and takes a step off base I doubt I will guess why she did it I will just ring her up. Not a cheap out; this player did not have her head in the game and it cost her, same as any other base running error.

If the ball is being held in the circle but we are not ready for the next pitch and a runner who is obviously not leading off, not gaining an advantage looses contact with the base I am not going to see it. She might even take a step away from the base, maybe adjusting sliding pants or handing a batting glove to a coach or whatever. IMO this would be your textbook example of a cheap out.

CecilOne Thu May 25, 2006 06:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Agree with the preventive umpiring measure of just calling time if you see this.

However, I don't believe the umpire who made the call against UCLA a few years back took any grief. If I remember correctly, Enquist seemed more frustrated with the player than angry at the umpire.

Reason you kill the play is that even though the move may look innocent, at what point do you determine it is okay and not a ploy trying to get a slight jump?

Which is why I included "if clearly not for taking a lead".

Blu_IN Thu May 25, 2006 09:53pm

Had this happen
 
I coach once a year at a festival for a team that my wife and I put together for kicks. One of the umpires called my player out for temporarily leaving the base prior to release. He said that as she rocked back her foot lost contact with the base.

I about lost it and it took everything in me not to get chucked from that game. My father-in-law on the other hand, got chucked the next inning when telling me about what BU said. The rabbit ears plate ump (he was using a 12 inch voice), whom was apparently shacking up with the BU, apparently thought he needed to go.

Blu

AtlUmpSteve Thu May 25, 2006 10:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel
I agree with AtlUmpSteve.

Does it have a material effect on the game?

Another question in this same vein. Do you call leaving early if they aren't stealing? You can probably guess my answer.

That one I have more trouble with, although it is clearly a Billy P. philosophy; and knowing where you are, of course that is one of your teachers. My problem is that we are to call leaving early immediately, with a "no pitch"; and to me, to be believable and credible, that call has to happen before the ball reaches the plate. Later than that, we are in danger of appearing to decide who, and when we choose to enforce the rule against. In order to know that an aggressive lead isn't a steal, you just can't wait that long without losing some credibility.

I understand the philosophy and the rationale (and have the greatest respect for Billy P.); just have some issues getting that timing right, without appearing to pick and choose when to enforce.

SC Ump Fri May 26, 2006 07:05am

I had similar situation in playoff games this year.

R1 at first had left lead foot on the bag and right foot was behind the bag in foul territory.

R1 decided to switch feet by first moving left foot behind the bag and then placing right foot on the bag as the lead foot.

Clearly not trying to "take a lead", just a dumb mistake.

I 'warned' the base coach after the inning, asking her to explain to her player to please not put me in the position where I have to call a nit-picky out.


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