Asking for help? What's the deal here?
 

What is the rule of thumb here? It seems like almost every close play in tournaments (12u ASA) is getting a time out called and a coach coming out, asking for help on the call. Too often, the BU does go to the PU and ask for help. We have had 6 calls over-turned this year and not even rightfully so. I'm a big fan of getting it right, but it's getting ridiculous. Close plays are close plays, coaches have to learn to live with it and Umps need to stop asking for help.

Yesterday, in an ASA 12-u tournament it happened to us again. Runner on 1st attempts to steal second. Ball and glove and player all arrive at the base at the same time. BU hesitates waiting for the F6 to show him the ball, or something, F6 reaches into the cloud of dust pulls out the ball with her bare hand, BU calls her safe.

Time out, other coach comes out, blah blah, BU goes to PU, blah blah, PU signals OUT. WHAAAAT?

Now, I'm sitting behind the fence with practically the same vantage point as the PU, give or take ten feet, and there is no way in heaven he could have determined with enough evidence to over-turn the call. Seriously, CLOUD OF DUST. The BU was in great position to see the call and if F6 would have lifted the glove with the ball in it and he called it out, I would have no problem, nor would our coaches have challenged the decision.

Point being, there are like 3 calls a game where the coaches come out and ask for help and get it. Where is the good ole days when you ask a BU for help and he says, "Nope, calls stands, I saw it."

I have had this exact situation occur several times this season, where I had an un-obstructed view of a close play made my call and had coach wanting me to go to my partner for help??? To which I replied, " don't need my partners help coach as I saw the play and made my call now let's play ball"!!!!! If I'm aboslutley sure of my call I'm not going to my partner,because then you'll have the coach wanting you to ask for help on every call he doesn't like!!!!

An umpire is urged to seek help when his view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when he has any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.

In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.

Umpires are not to seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling.

Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

When I make a call that I need help from my partner, I will go to them, away from the coaches and players, where we quietly and quickly talk about what I saw and what they saw, it is then up to me to either change or keep the call.

But your right coaches are asking on every close call now days. Dang this gentle kinder umpiring.

Bugg

Really? In a softball game?

Steve,

You betcha! I had a game last week where the 1B bleacher umpire called two balks in a 12U FP game! As plate umpire of course I overruled him.

I think that if this is the situation in your area, the umpires need some serious retraining, and you should address your question to the area UIC and/or scheduler. There should be no overruling of judgement calls at all. "Help" should be requested when there was truly additional information unavailable to the calling umpire, and even then, it is the calling umpire that should reverse the ruling, not the "overruling" umpire.

I think Steve's question centered on the calling of a 'balk' in a softball game as opposed to the more accurate 'illegal pitch'.

Nice attitude, Justyou. Sorry you weren't an actual softball umpire; you would have never used the word in the first place. On my keyboard, "balk" does not seem like a likely typo for "illegal pitch."

So your attitude toward me is better? You're funny, strange funny not haha!

The fact that I failed to change the wording when I 'cut & pasted' it from another document has nothing to do with intent of my post. I was using NCAA wording (allbeit baseball) to answer a question. You can also find basically the same verbage if you google for "NCAA softball umpire guidance."

I was trying to provide a serious answer to the original post. What positive input were you trying to provide?

It's obvious when the word 'balk' appeared it offended you and your "friend" AltUmpSteve. I guess some you guys are just super-sensitive souls huh?

After 20+ years of baseball umpiring I was 'asked' to help out with HS softball. So maybe the title of "Softball Umpire" doesn't fit me as well as it does you but the title "Umpire" seems to fit me just right.

Returning now, to the OP's question.

There should be no counsel from the other umpire on the field on issues strictly based on judgement. If I am in position to make the call, then there is no way that I am going to go to the other umpire who is much further away from the play than I am.

You nailed it when you said "Close plays are close plays, and coaches (and umpires) have to learn to live with (them)."

Let me make sure I'm getting this right... You quote a baseball rule that is completely invalid for softball (Just changing the word "Balk" to "Illegal Pitch" does not make the statement correct - the entire sentence is meaningless in softball), and YOU feel slighted when someone calls you on it? You post a wholely inaccurate response to OP, likely misleading them, and post it as fact... and it bothers you that ACTUAL umpires tell you rudely that you're wrong? Idiot.

Send me a link to where NCAA softball says an umpire should ask for help on an illegal pitch when it was clearly made from off the pitcher's plate. What, you can't? Maybe because there's no such thing as a pickoff from the pitcher's position in softball. Hmmm.. Idiot.

I think the term Softball Umpire fits you as well as the term Cricket Umpire fits me. Two different games, with two completely different sets of rules and procedures. And you obviously know as much about Softball as I do about Cricket. Idiot.

No, I was annoyed by your arrogant and disdainful response to what was a simple pointing out of YOUR error. Well, that's no surprise all the way around.Maybe in your world view. Your ego seems a bit too close to the surface, though.

When a coach comes and asks me to "go for help" on a call I have made, the first thing I will say is "Coach, why are you asking me to get help?" If the response is anything like:

"She slid under the tag!"
"The ball beat her to the base!"
"Your partner had a better angle!"
etc, etc...all of these statements are just another way of saying "your call is wrong"
My response is "Coach, it's my call, I made it, let's play."

If the coach comes out with a statement like:

"She dropped the ball"
"She pulled her foot"
Or any other statement that indicates that s/he saw something I may have missed, I will call my partner over and get his/her input.

Of course, after I have talked to my partner, it's up to me to stay with or change my call.

In somebody's strange world, this is not considered arrogant and disdainful, let alone personal and insulting. Somehow, through no fault of our local baseball umpire, I became personal. Right. :rolleyes:

You're not getting this, are you? You post baseball situations, one of which has absolutely no application to softball, and when that is pointed out, you cloak youself in the self-righteous egocentric insulting cover and claim that the poster who pointed out YOUR error is stupid, and then start accusing others of being immature and offended?

Who are you trying to kid?

BTW, you still haven't admitted that there was more wrong with your post that merely using the word "balk." Editing it out was nice, but ... it was not a mere "oversight" as you claim, since you originally defended it as just having the word wrong, saying anyone who could not figure this out was stupid.

Many umpires here also work both sports, but there is an obligation to know the rules of both. If you continue to view softball as baseball with changes, you'll continue to have problems with understanding the game. JMO.

Oh Boy..............
 

Dakota; Mcrowder; AltUmpSteve:

I went back and re-read every post............. I hate to say this but............. the objective evidence points to........................................ me as the quilty party when it comes to starting the insults :eek: ............................ Now I am preparing some crow....................... I hope that it's tasty :)

The realization that today I have been the one who was too sensitive........... Isn't an easy pill for me to swallow..................but along with my crow I guess I must swallow the pill too................... I hate it when that happens...............

Okay........... here it comes ........ I'm sorry that I picked a fight with you guys.

But I still think that "most" of the information I provided is applicable to softball (just over-look the balk part).............PEACE

I like this thought process. Once we've decided to go to our partner for help, we've been trained up here in Seattle to ask our partner a very specific question: "Did you see anything different that would make me change my call?" Direct and to the point.

Apology accepted. Thanks. That speaks highly of you.

I'll first apologize for the namecalling, delete your understandable response, and get back to the actual topic. Although I do feel compelled to say that the only reason the "balk" part was focused on was because that was completely false, even if you accept your initial suggestion that we, the readers, should merely replace the word balk with "illegal pitch". The two terms, while similar, are used interchangeably by those folks completely unfamiliar with softball rules, when in fact any umpire worth his salt knows they are very different things.

You start with a comment here that DOES bother me a lot - "The rules of softball are not that different from baseball." It bothers me because it gives the entirely wrong idea to those out there that think they know baseball rules, therefore they know softball rules. They ARE different in many significant ways.

It does not bother me AT ALL that a primarily baseball umpire works softball games. (I work both about equally, by the way). What DOES bother me (and most umpires) is that a primarily baseball umpire works softball games with a host of misconceptions based on their baseball upbringing. You obviously feel that the differences in the rules are minimal, which leads me to the conclusion that you probably shouldn't be on the softball field.

It does if they do not acknowledge or understand that the sports are different.

Great - I applaud you, and wish all umpires took pride in their hustle and mechanics.

Ah, we're back off track again. These sports do NOT have the same rules. And it's obviously (from other threads and this one) the case that your understanding of the rules and their differences is most lacking on the softball side.

I have no such animosity (if I did, I don't know which side I'd be forced to take!). You've misread my animosity, which is actually toward baseball umpires who quote baseball rules to apply to softball situations OR VICE VERSA, or umpires who walk on the field without knowing the rules.

I'll end with an apology for the "idiot" comment once again. It was uncalled for, and an overreaction on my part. Sorry bout that. You can see you struck a nerve - my bad for letting it push me into namecalling.

Now ... let's all go play dominos.

Suddenly, I feel overcome with warmfuzzies!!!! :D

Back on Subject - Going for Help
 

NCAA Softball Umpire Improvement Program
Umpire Manual
(Including - Instructions for NCAA Umpire Manual Updates – 2006)

SECTION 7
B — Going for Help
The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. But who will judge that the final decision is, in fact, the correct one?

If a call is changed from what it was originally, a different faction will now disagree with the modified call. Because of this, it is paramount that umpires do everything possible to make the correct decision initially and not have to change a call.

To substantially raise the odds of making a correct decision umpires have only to do their
job–every game, every play, every pitch. What this means is:

• You must know where you want to go.
• You must hustle to get there ahead of the play.
• You must be set for the play.
• You must adjust if the play develops differently.
• You must hold your decision until the play is completely over.
• You must move to your next position whether the play goes there or not.

Constantly and continually using the proven techniques for umpires will put, the overwhelming majority of the time, the umpire in a position to see the play more accurately than anyone else on the field. It is the nature of the game that whatever call an umpire makes, someone will disagree with it. Don’t sell yourself short! If you have gotten close enough to the play, gotten a desirable angle, clearly seen the action, and lack no necessary information needed for a decision, then why would you even entertain the thought that one of your partners, who was certainly farther away, probably had a worse angle, and definitely wasn’t looking to make the call, could see the play better than you.

Umpires are not to seek help on plays on which they are 100 percent confident in their judgment and view of the play. Have the conviction to stay with a call that you believe was made properly.

Going for help should not destroy the credibility of umpires and negate the value of a multiple umpire system. Do not go for help to pacify a coach or to be a nice guy. This is a cop-out and is disrespectful of yourself, other umpires, the coach, and the game itself. There are times, both by rule and circumstance, that an umpire will need to seek help on a call.

Umpires must get help on the following:

• A misinterpretation of a rule.
• When asked by the catcher on a checked swing called a ball.
• On a pickoff attempt when asked by a coach.
• When two umpires make different calls on the same play.
Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
• When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make an accurate judgment.
• When they have doubt.
• When doubt is created.

If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision. Ask your partner what you need to know: “Did she have the bag?” “Was the ball dropped/bobbled?” Your partner will respond with a verbal answer to your question. You then follow with the final call and signal for the play. If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited, go to your partner for the information you need. If, after making your call and playing action has ceased, you are asked to get some help and you have doubt, (e.g., a part of the play you did not see as clearly as you would have liked and could have missed a crucial element), then ask your partner for assistance.

Keep in mind that some calls cannot be reversed after playing action without creating larger problems like where to place runners and determining what would have happened had the call been different. If you, probably because of poor timing, make an immediately apparent incorrect call, promptly change the call to the correct one.

Any time you seek help from a partner, that partner must have been in a credible position to give you assistance with the call. The umpire whose call it was must be the one to seek help from a partner and has the ultimate decision of whether to change the call or not. Rarely is there a need for umpires to come together and confer. Unnecessary conferences among umpires delay the game and cast doubt on the crew. Most requests for assistance from a partner should be out in the open, direct, and concise - “Jane, was the ball on the ground?”

Only in the situations listed below, a partner who is 100 percent certain he/she has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call, should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. This is an extremely rare circumstance, and the ultimate decision to change a call still rests with the calling umpire:

• Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
• Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
• Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
• Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
• Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see a dropped or juggled ball after making a tag or force.
• Spectator interference plays.

Psychology of Asking for Help
Many times coaches really do not expect a call to be changed. But if they can get an umpire to seek help, they have gotten the umpire to admit doubt. Though the call may not be changed, the coach has set a precedent and will expect the umpire to go for help on all future requests. Because you went for help for one coach, the other coach will feel justified in expecting the same treatment

As a long time fastpitch coach and rookie umpire I have a tremendous dislike of baseball umpires trying to do softball games. An arrogant idiot of a baseball umpire will try to act like he knows what he is doing when he has absolutely no clue. Then when he realizes he has no clue he starts trying to cover it some other idiotic way.

I've had personal experiences including the only time I was ever asked to leave a game when I pointed out to the umpire I did not need to change my pitcher on my 3rd visit to the mound. I had conferred with the umpire to confirm it was my 2nd visit before visiting the mound when during the conference the other (visiting) coach convinced him it was my 3rd visit whereupon he told me I had to change pitchers, just one example of many I'm sure others have seen.

I'm not saying you can't do both, but it's like switch hitting - you need just as much practice and training from both sides.

Don't even get me started on the $100,000 baseball fields next to the $10,000 softball fields at our local high schools.

So only arrogant idiots of a baseball umpires make the type of mistake you mentioned in your post? Maybe it's how you went about pointing it out to the umpire that got you tossed?

So your anger toward baseball and baseball umpires has to do with the fact that baseball programs in your area receive more money and therefore have better facilities?

IMHO you have some issues to deal with. I hope that you will not be umpiring baseball.

Good luck with the umpire career :)

Signed: Baseball umpire trying to do softball games


PS. And we were all finally getting along

Not sure what this situation has to do with baseball. Sounds like an umpire who does not know how to keep track of charged conferences.There is no issue unless the baseball fields are taxpayer / federal dollars funded. It is my observation that the youth baseball programs are better at fund-raising for facility improvements than are the fastpitch programs. It is not uncommon for the (privately funded) youth baseball programs to fund facility improvements to the school's fields. If that is happening for baseball and not softball in your community, get on the stick with softball fund-raising.

Title IX - equal funds to each sport - this is hidden behind booster club fundraising. What is it saying when there is a beautiful baseball stadium at the public HS and a field and a backstop with last year's baseball bleachers for the girls. Yes, I have an attitude about it since the female athletes are short-changed. We put too much money into certain sports and offer a smaller selection of sports for the kids to take part in, boys or girls.

Of course softball umpires make mistakes but baseball umpires that think they know softball are typically arrogant and already think they know it all. I was asked to leave, never raised my voice, the girls had no idea what had happened. The umpire followed me back to the dugout when I had already attempted to leave the conversation and kept saying you have to change pitchers and I was saying whatever, then started in on the other coaches when I made mention that he obviously did not know the rules and could he bring the UIC over then he asked me to leave so I did. I could have made a fool of the umpire had I wanted but was trying to leave the area. What do you think he would have done when I brought in another pitcher, threw one pitch then brought the first pitcher back. He would have said she cannot pitch anymore. I could have said that is her sister since we had pitchers that were identical twins and no way he knew which number the pitcher was wearing.

The tournament had a lot of baseball umpires (cheaped out and did not use an ASA association) and this was just one of many examples from that particular weekend (6 or 7 years ago) I've seen lots of bad umpiring through the years, in high school ball or other than ASA. Other examples are calling girls out for not sliding when no serious contact, allowing 10U to steal home, calling girls out for leaving base early lots of times at all age levels, no clue on look back rule, no clue on legal/illegal pitches. I'm sure the more experienced umpires can list many more examples.

My favorite is the ISA umpire that called my player out for avoiding the tag, she fell to the ground and F1 ran by her and she got up and scored. Blue told me she fell out of the basepath.

As a coach with many umpire friends, I learned to always respect the umpire, it is just common sense and best for your team. I never thought umpiring would be easy and am enjoying every game I do so far.

Asking for help is one of the parts of umpiring that is the hardest to define and even harder for an umpire to gain the knowledge when to do it.

An umpire has to be able to know that he/she may have not made the correct call because they didn't have all of the information and this can be caused by being out of position, being blocked, or making an interpretation without all of the data.

Today I had a play at the plate. As the ball came in and the catcher went to tag the runner, the pitcher moved into my line of sight. I tried to move but she took away my angle.

I didn't see a tag so I ruled the runner safe saying, 'No Tag!" The catcher look at me like I was nuts and I knew that I was blocked and didn't have all of the information I needed to make an accurate call. I assumed she made the tag but not seeing it I couldn't make that assumption.

I went to my partner who was standing between the pitcher/third base and I yelled so everyone could hear me, "My sight was blocked by the Pitcher. Did you see a tag for an out?"

Partner said "Yes." and I changed my call. Third out. Head Coach comes up to us and says, "It was the correct call. I am sorry to see it changed but it is correct."

IMHO it was great that you went to your partner for help but I would have done it privately

Really? Have you read the law?

Especially with the history of this thread, I am surprised at the tone of your answer. To me it comes across as smart a$$. I personally don't know anyone that has read Title IX, but I know a number of people that have read about it.

"Equal funds to each sport" is not how I understand it. Have you read Title IX? I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on the subject.

My understanding of Title IX is that it means equal funding for qirls and boys programs. I do not believe it is limited to a sport-by-sport evaluation, nor even an evaluation of athletic program against athletic program, but just that a school cannot budget money unfairly earmarked for one specific demographic.

I also am not familiar with what I am sure are court rulings that discuss how 'booster club' money would affect this parity.

No need to start calling me names because I want equality in sports programs. As you stated it, equal funding for girls and boys programs. It is obvious that this is not the case when you throw in football. We've seen Title IX make its way through the courts, be challenged by the Executive Branch, be upheld in most cases and contribute greatly to womens' sports. In Georgia we did not even have softball fields for the girls before Title IX. Now athletic directors at high schools hide behind booster club money. I am not exaggerating when I say $10K for the softball field and $100k for the baseball field. No one challenges it because it will impact their daughter's ability to play at the school.

We started an annual tournament that raised $12K each of the last 2 years so now our softball field looks much better but still does not match the baseball facilities. The school loves this because they do have some limits to what they can spend on boys' sports versus girls. When you raise money for the girls they can spend more on the boys.

Athletic directors at each school administer their programs differently. What I am asking is why do we continue to pour excessive amounts of money into certain sports instead of expanding the sporting programs so that more children can participate. In our case, hockey and bicycling are school activities and not sports. There are so many sports that could be offered and so many more children would be involved in activities that keep them out of trouble.

Instead, everything is focused on the school football program. The baseball parents even complain of this. If your son is not a football player, he is second class and with schools in excess of 2,000 students not everyone can be a football star, or even a second or third string player.

It should be all about the kids and offering more opportunity. The more sports that are funded the more children participate. In our locale a lot of folks complain about the lack of skill in our rec leagues because of too many travel teams. I say, look at all these girls that are getting an opportunity to play and to play the positions they want to learn. Now if we could just get good coaches that could teach them.

Title IX

http://www.dol.gov/oasam/regs/statutes/titleix.htm

Now that we are totally off the subject of softball and talking about equality of sports funding……

I’m the father of 5 sons. #1 played baseball through HS; #2 was a football player; #3 played hockey; #4 didn’t play sports but became a certified SCUBA diver at age 10; & #5 played soccer & baseball.

Football had the big stadium. But charged admission to the games and sold lots of food to raise additional money + fund raising projects.

Baseball (and softball) had nice varsity fields but nothing on the scale of football but baseball didn’t bring as many fans out. Free to watch most of the games (playoffs weren’t free) but sold food + other fund raising projects.

Hockey was played at public rinks. Admission was charged (to cover some of the rink rental) and other fund raising projects.

Soccer was played on well mowed and lined fields, usually not on school property and survived mainly due to fund raising.

So which sport should I hate the most? Should I favor taking money from the football program and give it to the soccer program just because football earns more money because they put a couple thousand paying fans in the stadium each game? Maybe I should hate the softball program because they had a nice field and the hockey team had to rent public rinks....shouldn't the school have built their own ice rink? With that logic maybe a fry cook should earn as much as a doctor or a Hummer cost the same as a Ford Focus.

1) Please stop beating each other up and focus on officiating.

2) Asking for help should be a private conversation, and as said above, the question is whether the other official saw anything you didn't.

3) I can be good game management to be courteous enough to ask, even when you are "sure". I've been surprised a few times, which is why it should be private.

4) No one seems to have noticed the absolutely wrong part of the OP, the PU signalling an out on a BU call.

You are really kidding yourself if you think the price of admission covers the facilty costs of a football stadium, that would be your tax dollars. When a new high school is built, and we're building lots of them in our area there is always a football stadium with weight room and gymnasium ready to go then baseball then soccer, tennis, then softball. I think it is great all your boys are involved in sports. I am in favor of spreading the wealth. School sponsored scuba, hockey, cycling, etc. - challenge the status quo.

My son participated in baseball through 14U and my oldest daughter played softball up to 14U when she had more interest in academic clubs and swim team. My youngest daughters are playing their last season of 18U.

Take it however you want. It was simply asking the poster to back up his statement with something other than apocryphal stories or opinions. Yes. Incorrect. It mean equal opportunity. Opportunity does not equal funding. Nor does it mean equal facilities. True, it is much broader than merely sports. You could read that into it, but "fair" does not mean "equal."If the booster club is closely associated with the school's atheltic program, it is not separated out. What I was referring to was not booster club money, but (for example) Little League raising money to build dugouts on elementary school fields. That is separate, and does not obligate the school to spend tax-payer money to similarly upgrade the softball fields. I hope you can see how that would be very unfair to both the Little League and the taxpayers, since the end result of such a policy would likely be the LLs would not be allowed to improve the facilities for their use. Given the nutty courts these days, all this does not mean such a ruling will not be made (or maybe already has been made). But it is not in the law itself.

Don't know who this is directed to, but I did not call you anything.The ADs are skating on very thin ice. If it is school-associated booster club money (for the benefit of the school's varsity sports), then the schools are vulnerable to a Title IX challenge, and should be challenged.

Trying to get some areas of the country to not be so football-centric in HS sports is a challenge, for sure. Same for colleges. Same for your average sports fan.

I think CecilOne said it best, I enjoyed venting my frustrations with the bureaucracy though. I'm from those days we had to fight to offer fastpitch instead of slowpitch at our local park then we had to fight to offer travel teams in addition to rec league teams when there were no travel baseball teams out of our park. Love the sport and looking forward to many years of getting better as an umpire.

As to the original post it's up to the umpire who made the call to ask for help. To ask a H/P umpire who was 80 -90 ft away to help you with a out call on the tag at 2nd is NUTS! Tell the coach it's your call and no help is needed.

Angle is more important than distance.

Okay


.

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/200.../04-12-08.html

The comment opening the article is a myth, plain and simple. I can see no reason to waste my time reading an article by someone who obviously doesn't understand the subject.

Yeah Sure Right

Hyperbole, sure. Myth, no.

While it is true title IX has not "{forced} colleges and universities to eliminate hundreds of male athletic teams" it has forced them to choose between spending even more money on athletics or eliminating teams, especially after the Feds decided the only part of title IX they would use in ruling on college athletics was numbers of athletes, ignoring the level of interest requirement.

As a result, many men's teams have been eliminated. You can argue is it for budget reasons, but the reason the budget became a reason was due to the way title IX was being enforced (in a way that was more limited than the law actually allows).

"...are now trying to persuade the Supreme Court to create a private cause of action ..." Absolutely true (or was true at the time the article was written).

Which is exactly to what I was alluding.

The sole purpose of the law was to eliminate discrimination. No where does it state that any programs were to be eliminated.

The bottom line is that the schools used this as an excuse to cut existing programs they no longer wanted to financially support.

I only dispute the words underlined. Since they were required to add female athletes (and hence, sports teams) due to the number of athletes system of enforcement (as I said, ignoring the level of interest requirment), colleges needed to get the funds for these newly required teams from somewhere. That they chose to cut men's teams to free up the funds cannot fairly be described as "wanted to" cut, anymore than any other kind of extortion is a free choice.

This has led, for example, to such ridiculousness as the University of Minnesota establishing a women's rowing team when there is absolutely no interest in the sport in any high school in the state nor at any youth level whatsoever in the state. It is a completely imported sport, solely for the purpose of being able to offer women atheletes a team. It offered no benefit whatsoever to in-state students.

A fast, easy to understand summary of Title IX, and common misconceptions about it
 

http://www.womenssportsfoundation.or...html?record=34

http://bailiwick.lib.uiowa.edu/ge/aboutRE.html

Yup, 2 completely objective, non-advocacy sources. :rolleyes:

No show partner for two man. Going solo, close play a second, called out. OC must have forgot I had no parnter, wants me to get help. I told him, he agrees with me. I think he's still looking for my partner.

When you are alone, every argued call is your partner's fault. ;)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...academicweapon