10U ASA Question
 

Remember this is 10U and this happened to me Saturday and could have been a lot more exciting than it turned out. R1 steals home from 3B and crosses home plate. F3 has ball. R1 starts back to 3B at coaches' urging. Is she now liable to be put out on her way from the home plate area back towards 3B. What if she is near the dugout when she starts back? What if she enters the dugout?

The thing to remember about 10U baserunning rules is...

Nothing changes except for the base that a baserunner is eligible to advance to. All other baserunning rules apply.

Once the runner has reached home, she is no longer in jepoardy of being tagged out (same as any other runner), but she will not be allowed to score. After the play, she will be placed back on 3B.

If she attempts to return to 3B on her own, when she is between home and 3B, she has again placed herself in jeopardy of being tagged.

Dakota, I disagree.

You are correct that the only change at 10U that applies here is that she can't score. But at any other age group, a runner cannot put themselves back on the basepaths once they've legally scored. Therefore this particular runner in 10U is not putting themselves back on the basepaths after they've legally scored, even if prompted by her coach. Consider the case of a 14U runner who runs from 3rd and scores, but her coach directs her to return to third because he mistakenly thinks the ball was caught. This runner cannot "unscore" if she does not have reason to return to third, and is not in jeopardy as she returns to third base.

The 10U runner in question was in jeopardy while she advanced toward home. But after scoring, she simply gets placed back on third by the umpire. She is not in jeopardy whether the umpire or the coach directs her to return.

What about a runner who is returning to touch third?

If she is returning because she has a legitimate reason to return (left early, missed base, etc), then she IS liable to be put out on her way back.

But if it turns out she did not have legitimate reason to return, she cannot "unscore", and is not in jeopardy.

Why does F3 have the ball and why is the coach urging R1 to return to third. I think I am just missing something. (maybe my frontal lobe)

Well, as much as I would like to agree with you, especially at the 10U level, I believe the statement above isn't true.

If it were, a runner could never return to 3B after touching home on a base left too early.

And even as ridiculous as it seems, since ASA has now ruled that a BR can reinstate the "force" (for lack of better words) at 1B if s/he passes the base going back toward home, I cannot see any other option on the given scenario than the runner placing themself in jeopardy by attempting to return to 3B.

It doesn't really matter who has the ball, just making a point that it is still in play and is not in the circle. The defense was confused, the 1B coach thought he knew what was going on. The play started out with R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B. They steal and the ball ends up in the OF so they advance an extra base at the 3B coach's urging. I just stood and watched as the ball was returned to the infield and the 1B coach started urging the runners to return. As it turned out the defense had no idea what to do and the defensive coach yelled at them to ask for time which I granted since no one was trying to make a play and the runners had by that time returned.

We have good responses but different answers to the original question. My question relates to R1 after she crosses home plate. At the time if she had been tagged while running back to 3B I would have called her out but am still not sure if it is the right call. Did she have to retouch home plate? I don't think she's out if she enters the dugout, just place her back on 3B. What if she runs back to 3B after almost entering the dugout.

Reinstating the force is a different issue, and deals with a runner who has not scored. A runner who has scored has a different status than a live runner.

Mike - let me ask it this way, in a higher level game. 14U, say. R1 on third, coming home on a squeeze. Bunt is popped up and R1 crosses the plate. F1 makes a diving attempt, but fails to catch the ball. 3BCoach yells at runner to return as he thought the ball was caught, and R1 retouches home and makes it 4-5 steps back toward third base before noticing umpire ruling safe on the no-catch by F1. F1 throws home and F2 tags runner. Do you have an out? Or is R1 simply not allowed to "unscore"?

2nd sitch - R1 on third, passed ball. R1 scores easily, but just barely touches the plate (which PU sees). Coaches and fans start yelling at the runner to touch home as F2 starts to tag her, and R1 sees her path to the plate blocked, so runs to third base and makes it safely. Where do you place R1? Does she score, or do you leave her on third.

I believe the answer to the first is that she is not out, and the 2nd is that she scores. If you agree to these, then the same logic applies to the runner in the OP - she has scored, and cannot reestablish herself as a runner, thus cannot create a situation where she can be tagged. the ONLY difference at 10U is that you simply return the runner to third base after "scoring". If there is a reason to treat the 10U runner differently than the 14U runner, please point me to a rule or POE, as I can find no reason to rule differently.

The problem with your analysis, mcrowder, is that the 10U runner has NOT scored. She is still an active runner. But, since home plate is not a base that is "occupied", she is not in jeopardy after touching home unless she attempts to return to 3rd.

Unfortunately, ASA does not have a case play on this situation. I believe she is back in jeopardy, and can be tagged out. This is interesting - is she subject to appeal if she did not touch home? I believe so. The defense would have to appeal the missed base, though. Correct. She is just not eligible to stay there. Then she is merely back on 3rd.

The point is that the interpretation allows a runner who was protected from being retired (overrunning 1B) to be placed in jeopardy just by walking past the bag. I can see a runner returning to 1B after overrunning it and stops to take off a brace, shin/ankle guard or put on a jacket and be a step toward the plate even though she hasn't yet returned to 1B and a coach screaming to tag her and an umpire buying the coaches argument.

I disagree with the interp, but it is there in black and white and it isn't my position to ignore or contradict it.

Mike - I don't see that interp even vaguely applying to the situation described. That interp would not be valid for a scored runner that touched home plate on a force, and then proceeded back toward third base for some reason (which is the case in our OP sitch) - it's only valid for a runner that is still a live runner (which doesn't apply for a scored runner). And you didn't answer my questions about the older player in a similar situation.

Dakota, I respect your opinion to disagree, and admit that this is grey area no matter which way you rule. However, I maintain that this IS a runner who has scored, under the rule "Score a run when...". The superceding rule that disallows the run because this is a 10U runner does not give me anything to indicate that there is anything that could put this runner back in jeopardy. There are other rules that disallow runs on scored runners (force play on 3rd out, advantageous 4th out appeal, appeal on preceding runner for 3rd out, etc), but none of these place the runner in question into additional jeopardy - so I can see no analogous reason to determine that this 10U runner would be in jeopardy under any circumstance.

Interesting responses all, so the runner that steals an extra base where not allowed in 10U is subject to be put out when she returns during a live ball but the runner that crosses home plate is not. My understanding is that as long as they are in contact with the subsequent base they are not liable to be put out but if they return they are - given there is only 1 R on the subsequent base.

Mike Rohrabaugh
Atlanta, GA

And I believe it very much applies to the situation. The general discussion is a runner having safely touched the base required in order to be safe. In both circumstances, the player is not required to maintain contact with the base to effect the benefit of succeeding.

Short of missing a base or leaving the base too soon at 3B, there is no, zero, nada, zilch, zippo, no reason for the runner to attempt to return to home or third base by either runner. However, ASA has determined that should the runner at first choose to return toward the plate, she is now in jeopardy. So, why wouldn't this apply to a runner coming home and for some strange and unknown reason head back toward third (assume with a sense of urgency, not just walking toward a 3rd base dugout.

BTW, speaking of scoring in ASA, please tell me why a player cannot touch 3rd base, realized s/he missed second, return and touch it and then run directly to the plate to score.

Likewise, mcrowder.

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before (and am pretty sure you came down on the same side of the conversation I'm espousing here... but I'll do some digging to see if I can find it) that a runner who has scored, and has no further baserunning obligations (such as a missed third base or leaving early on a catch), cannot "unscore" by retreating up the basepath. A "runner who has scored" has a different status than just "a runner" (one example of this would be that one is not allowed to assist a runner, the other is). Let me ask again, just to clarify your position. Assume 14U, R1 scores from third (no leaving early or missed base), and then for some reason runs back to third base - are you leaving her on third?

I don't see the relevance, but I'll answer, assuming you will tell me how this is relevant...

I don't have the book in front of me, but the rules do say a runner must touch the bases in order. I can look it up when I get back to my car if I need to.

Wow! This really is warmfuzzyday!:D

Hey, Scott... you suck!


(feel better now?) ;)

Uh....gee....no Tom, I really don't. Just when I thought you were becoming the OF Goodwill Ambassador! ;)

Just trying to bring some balance! :D

Let me know when you find it.

She can. She is in jeopardy of being ruled out on appeal, however.

Citation please

Why? Were you speeding? :D

8-7-G (2005) - don't have my 2006 book with me.

That is only out on appeal. In my scenario, an appeal is not available.

I said "on appeal" before. Why is an appeal not available in your scenario? I must be missing something.

Irish is being intentionally cryptic, and we are obviously not following. What are you really trying to say, Mike, and how does apply to this situation? At this moment, it seems like a) a non-sequitur, and b) an incorrect assessment in and of itself. I'm sure I'm missing something.

My point is that there is nothing in ASA's rule book that states the runner must touch first, second third and home base IN THAT ORDER.

5.5.A only says a run will be scored each time a player touches all of those bases.

However, we all KNOW the right order and rule on appeals when a runner fails to touch the bases in that order.

So, if a batter puts the ball into play and circles the bases in what we know as the reverse order, are we going to automatically rule the player out?

I always thought they were called 1st, 2nd, 3rd for a reason; but thanks for pointing out an NFHS rules superiority.

True, technically and literally. But the rule I referenced does say the runner is in jeopardy of being ruled on on proper appeal if the runner "fails to touch the <u>intervening</u> base or bases in <u>regular or reverse order</u>". You are correct that it does not define "intervening", "regular order" or "reverse order", but, as you say, we all know what that means.

8.3.d
 

Actually there is a rule that says a runner is out if they run the bases in reverse order. Its rule 8.3.D and it says....

A runner shall not run bases in reverse order either to confuse the fielders or to make a travesty of the game.

Effect: The ball is dead and the runner is out.

No appeal required. Of course this does not apply to the OP, since the rule clearly states that the purpose behind the running the bases in reverse order must be to confuse or to make a travesty of the game. The runner in this case was doing neither.

You are obviously missing or not reading the posts. NO WHERE in the ASA book specify the order in which a runner must touch the bases. Therefore, how can you state that a runner is running the bases in reverse order if there is no defined order to begin?

With all due respect, Mike, none of this even remotely deals with the status of a 10U runner who has crossed the plate, and then is asked to return to 3rd by her coach instead of the umpire. Not sure why this tangent was even followed at all, and I assumed you were going somewhere with it, since you're not traditionally a thread hijacker.

So...

Why do you feel a runner can "unscore" once they've crossed the plate (assuming they have no further true need to be back on the basepaths, such as a missed base or one left too early), and also - why do you feel a 10U runner who was told by her coach to return to third after crossing the plate would be in jeopardy of being tagged, when the same runner when told by an umpire to return would not be? Seems that the person (coach vs umpir) directing her to properly return (as she must) is a rather flimsy reason to differentiate her liability status by.

I'm sorry you cannot see the relation between the interp on a runner placing themself in jeopardy by returning past first and a runner returning to 3B. I see it as quite clear.

As I said, I do not agree with it, but it's not up to me to accept or ignore rulings.

Let me ask you this. If the runner did turn and head back to 3B after scoring during a live ball and drew a throw while there are other active runners, would you rule interference in accordance with 8.7.P and call the runner closest to home, out?

I would not just as I would not if B/R runs to 1B on a dropped 3rd strike with less than 2 outs and 1B occupied and draws a throw. Our local association takes the position she is no longer in jeopardy once she has crossed home plate in 10U. Perhaps I should start a new thread, BR runs to 1B in sit. above and is inside the baseline halfway up the line and C is tring to pick girl off at 1B and hits her in the back - who is out?

The rule I cited explicitly exempts the retired runner on a U3K, but also states that a runner who has scored cannot continue to run and draw a throw.

You cannot have it both ways.

Why start a new thread? There are only three issues in this one. ;)

Yes, of course I would. I believe this (and other related situations) is exactly what 8.7.p is for. Am I wrong there too?

Different sitch - runner in question is a runner who has scored - which is who this particular rule is talking about. Retired runner and Scored runner are two different things.

So, 10U baserunning rules say that the runner is not eligible to score, but she runs home anyway on a wild pitch that is ball four. Coach screams at her to return to 3B. She does, but in her attempt to return, she draws a throw, but makes it safely back to 3B. Meanwhile, as this is going on, BR advances to 2B.

You're going to call R1 out for interference?

Yes. (stupid 10 character limit....)

In this case, I wouldn't. There is nothing gained by the offense. She cannot advance to 2B on a walk. I would just put the runners back after play has stopped. The defense can still attempt to get the runner out if she tries to return to 1B.

Theoretically, the return to 3rd drew a throw that could have been used to retire the runner off base between 1st and 2nd.

OTOH, if R1 is in jeopardy, the whole interference issue is avoided.

Prepare to eject a coach.

My point here is that if you insist the runner has scored and cannot "unscore", then how can you not call the runner out for drawing a throw when the rules specifically prohibit it?

You cannot have it both ways, either the runner scored or is still active.

Also, the rules permit for a runner to return to 3B after scoring if s/he believes THEY missed the base or left the base too soon regardless of age level. The rules even specify that this runner must retouch the plate prior to doing so or be subject to an appeal for missing the plate while returning.

I'm sure you believe this isn't the same situation, but I believe it is. Just because the runner is considered to have scored the moment s/he crosses the plate, touched or not, does not mean s/he cannot place themselves back into jeopardy basically because the rules do not differentiate home plate from all the other bases.

I don't think either mcrowder or I am trying to have it both ways. I consider the runner still active (hence, no interference). He considers her as having scored (hence, interference).

My reasoning is the runner is not eligible to score, so she has not scored.

If the run scored, how can you put the runner back on 3rd.
 

I agree with the consensus. The runner is in jeopardy on her return to 3rd. What if she did not return to 3rd? Suppose she went to the dug out? What are you going to do then? I'd put her back on 3rd. Why? Because by rule she can't score. By rule she didn't score. So, if as in the OP, she returns to 3rd, she is in jeopardy. The rule clearly states that a runner at 3rd is liable to be put out if she is off 3rd base. The rule also states that a runner who has advanced beyond the base they are entitled to is in jeopardy between those bases. In the OP, the runner is off of 3rd base and has advance beyond the base they are entitled to.

The rule book allows us to place the runner back on the base they are entitled to if they safely advanced to the next base. If they chose to go back on their own, they are in jeopardy.

A note to fastpitch: I also live is Suwanee GA. What association do you call for?

So, if the runner cannot score, by rule, and not in contact with a base, that runner is still in jeopardy whether she crossed the plate or not.:)

Is that what you are saying?

No, because neither is she "between bases." She is not in jeopardy unless she attempts to return to 3rd. Bizzare, I know. But it is how I read the 10U rules mapped into the general baserunning rules. My rationale is that runners do not stay in contact with the plate.

I can definitely see both sides of this, and DO believe that the powers that be should address what appears to be not only a grey area, but one where reasonably well-informed "rules-guys" can disagree 100% on.

From my POV, this runner has scored. She cannot unscore and is not subject to being tagged out after crossing home. It is her status as a "Runner who has scored" that keeps her from being tagged out after crossing home. A runner who has scored cannot unscore (again, excluding any runner who has other unfinished correctable duties such as returning to touch a missed base or a base left early on a caught fly ball). Since she can't unscore, she cannot be subject to a tag upon returning to third base (and would be subject to interference should she draw a throw when another play was possible).

Here's another issue I have with the concept of her being in jeopardy if a COACH tells her to return. Lets examine this play without the coach telling her to go back. She crosses the plate, and other play stops. As umpires, we send her back. We do not kill the play, ball is still live. If, say, a runner on 1st were to take off for 2nd with the ball in the circle while this runner was returning to third, we'd ring her up. More evidence that the ball is live at this moment. But we send her back, and NO ONE thinks she's liable to be put out as she's returning.

So why would we change this opinion solely on the basis of who the person is that told her to return to third? The coach is doing what he thinks he's supposed to do - telling his girl that he knows must return to 3rd that she must in fact return to 3rd. There's no reason to change the jeopardy status of this runner based solely on what individual told her to go back to 3rd.

Speaking ASA, this is not true. The ball is dead when sending a runner back.