Blue: Don't toss the bat
 

Link to a Denver Post Article regarding an ump who tossed a bat away from home plate area.

I have, as taught, stopped moving bats or anything else. I yell a warning to any runner coming home when a bat might be in the way.

Another reason why we are taught, and continue to be taught, not to handle player's equipment.

If the bat had been left in the base path and runner coming home had tripped, fell and broke something the umpire would still be sued, probably for deliberately putting the runner in harms way by inaction or some such thing.

I do pick up bats in the base path but I don't toss them. I hold onto them with my free hand and at my side until the play is over. If I have to make a call I let the bat drop to the ground beside me.

The only time I don't pick up the bat is if the runner coming from 3rd is so close to home that I might interfere with her if I try to get the bat. In that case I yell to the runner to look out for the bat and point to it.

For those in this group who think this is NOT a litigious society, this lawsuit and its reinstatement prove otherwise.

One of my mentors told me a long time ago not to handle bats, helmets, etc., during the game. not only to avoid situations like this one, but to avoid the appearance of favoritism.

If I pick up Team A's bat and hand it back to a coach after the half-inning, but I don't do it for Team B for whatever reason, now Team B can think that I am "favoring" Team A.

Yes, I realize this sounds silly, but I think we have all seen how warped little coach's minds can work sometime. :)

So maybe I will come off as a jerk for not helping out with the bats and helmets, but as long as both teams think I'm a jerk, it's all good.

I don't pick up bats and throw them, but if I see a potential play at home coming and a bat is in the way I will kick it to the side. Never had a problem with it and never hit a player kicking it.

I've always been more worried about someone suing me for damaging one of their $500 bats than the chance that I might hit someone. Never really considered that a possibility, but nonetheless, the most I'll do (if time permits and the bat is right in the basepath or on the plate), is step in front of it and drag my foot so that it ends up behind me. I don't kick it - just drag it a yard at most.

You just don't touch the equipment. If a bat is in the way, it is the ODB's responsibility to clear it, not the umpire's. If that is an issue for the team, they shouldn't drop their bat. The rules allow for them to carry it away from the plate area.

Years back, I use to be one of those who kicked it out of the way, but how do you know the bat isn't moving to another position which could be equally as dangerous or interfere with the play. A discarded bat is part of the game, a bat moved ANYWHERE is not.

Irish is partially right on this one
 

First, for him to suggest that girls don't have to simply drop the bat it not truthful. In NJ, umpires for PONY, NSA, ASA, Babe Ruth, et al call a girl out if she does not just drop the bat. So, any legal investigation of a bad situation would concur that the girl had to drop the bat, without any liability to the girl.

Second, where Irish is right, an umpire should not take any proactive action like picking up and throwing a bat that could injure someone. That is outside the umpires duties, and it exposes an umpire to legitimate liability should something go wrong.

Interesting ! So, NJ has amended all those different formally published rules? In ASA (and NFHS, as well), the batter can actually carry the bat all the way around the bases, as long as there is no interference with any play as a result.

Over the past several years, I have weaned myself from picking up any equipment while play is live. I will, on occasion, pickup the catcher's head gear, if the play is dead; and I will at times pick up a bat, after the end of an inning, and hand it to a base coach passing by.

I can just see the umpire, during civil suit deposition: "Mr. Umpire, did you see the bat lying on the ground next to home plate when my client was running home?"
"Yes, I did".
"Mr. Umpire, did you consider moving that bat away from the base path?"
"No, that's the job of the on-deck batter".
"So, Mr. Umpire, you are actually delegating the safety of the game participants during a contest you are officiating to a 12, 13, 14, etc. year old player?"
"Well . . . ."

Recently, in a HS baseball game, a defensive coach yelled from the dugout, "Blue, get that bat out of the on-deck circle before my catcher breaks a leg!"

I had not realized the on-deck batter had returned into the dugout, for whatever reason, leaving a bat lying on the ground, in the on-deck circle.

Easily handled: I called Time until the bat had been removed.

In your haste to show Mike to appear wrong, you have revealed, again, you lack of understanding of the rules.

Speaking ASA, those umpires are wrong.

If you have local rules to that effect, at least be truthful yourself.

Tommie,
 

Just telling you how your ASA umpires do it in NJ.

If you don't like it, you should get your ASA buddies to find way to get NJ in line.

First, with the cost of bats, I don't touch them.

Second, what kind of umpire's got enough money that it's worth the cost of filing a law suit?

Still wondering if you are referring to NJ umpires or Newark. There is a difference.

This is how it should be handled: :D

Atty: Mr. Umpire, did you see the bat lying on the ground next to home plate when my client was running home?
Umpire: No, sir, I did not
Atty: Why not?
Umpire: Because I was watching the play.
Atty: Why were you watching the play and not concerned with the bat?
Umpire: That is the purpose of my being on the field and the instruction received from the association under whose rules this league chose to play.
Atty: "Mr. Umpire, did you consider moving that bat away from the base path?"
Umpire: What bat would that be? As I previously stated, I was watching the play.
Atty: If you are not responsible for the bat, who is?
Umpire: I would think that would be the owner of the bat, sir.
Atty: So, you expect the owner of the bat to come back to pick it up after they use it? Are you just going to ignore the bat they leave on the ground?
Umpire: Sir, the player doesn't need to drop or leave the bat. That's just what she has been instructed to do by the coach, not the umpire.
[/QUOTE]

My simple practice when working as PU (of course some apply when I am BU):
DON'T:
Throw bat (maybe slide out of way with my foot when runner coming to plate provided I have time)
Pick up bat and hand to batter
Touch players even when they are injured (I am not a doctor but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express) :>)
Throw ball back to pitcher (let catcher throw ball)
Pick up catchers helmet after it's thrown on field
These are all I think of at this point. I am very professional while umpiring and have not had a problem with practices listed.
Sam

Last night had runners advancing home while a bat was lying in the base path. I said to the runners, "Watch out for the bat". The catcher stepped over and picked up the bat. I thanked her.

Agree with Mike and the majority of everyone here, we as an association stress to our umpires to leave equipment alone. Althought I do have to admit that as a young umpire (long time ago) I did use the classic 'kick' the bat out of way technique, picked up the bat and handed it to the next batter, or even took them to the dugouts between innings, I was a very helpful little batboy.

Ed,

You accused Mike of not being truthful, when the truth is you are just looking to get a reaction.

The umpires that call a batter-runner out for not dropping the bat (in ASA) are wrong. Deal with it.

By rule, the batter-runner can carry the bat all the way around the bases, just so long as she does not interfere with the defense.

You are wrong. So are your umpires (barring local rules and assuming, of course, that your report of what they call for all those different organizations is correct; given your lack of knowledge on other things and your intense desire to merely be a troll, that is a BIG assumption.)

Outstanding, Mike!

Is there a fed rule??
 

:confused:

That requires batters to drop the bat? No.

I didn't think so
Thanks

Oh Holy Pony...
 

Well, whaddayano...

(Emphasis in the last paragraph is mine.)

Since this issue came up once before, I do seem to recall that NSA was the lone rule set that prohibited carrying the bat to first base.

Eddie, are you Jersey guys using NSA umpires for all your ASA, PONY, Babe Ruth, whatever games?

(Edited to add: Okay..I looked it up. NSA rule 7-11-g prohibits a batter-runner from touching first base while still holding the bat. The batter is to be called "out".)

PONY, not Pony.

OK, I'll try to remember (but may need re-training, since I don't call Pon... er, PONY)... but their web site has it both ways. ;)

:D C'mon, dammit, get it right. :D

It should be PONY because it's an acronym. In some box in the garage I have a Lew Hays Award...I think for outstanding excellence screwing Little League or something

Much as I hate to feed the troll, I seem to recall that USSSA has a similar rule calling a btter-runner out for touching 1B will holding the bat.

Still, not an ASA, NFHS, or NCAA rule.

What's it for? (Not meaning to hijack the thread.)

Protecting Our Nation's Youth

Thanks. I never knew that.

"Protecting Our Nation's Youth"

:D There's an echo in here, whoah :D

":D There's an echo in here, whoah :D "

Sorry...I just couldn't resist!:cool:

I can understand telling a pony whoah. But, how can you tell an acronym whoah? :cool:

Since PONY is an acronym, I guess their division names must be too.

Ok, what does MUSTANG mean? PINTO? COLT? BRONCO?

And, a gold STAR (Silly Tired Acronyms Reek) from the SEA (Society for the Elimination of Acronyms) to anyone who can tell us the meaning of the acronym PALOMINO! :D

Persons Against Linguistic Observations Made In Nice Overtones. :p

Asa vs PONY
 

Asa is an organization run by insurance brokers with the most significant dollar goal of getting insurance commissions and insurance administration fees. PONY started as a Pennsylvania organization called to protect our neighborhood youth. Thinking it was better to get kids onto ballfields as opposed to buying and selling drugs on town street corners. The PONY concept struck accord across much of America, particularly because of the old LL rules that made 12 the oldest age allowed of play Little League. Because of the nationwide interest, PONY is now know as protect our nation's youth.

In New Jersey, PONY is now an important organization for girls fastpitch softball. An organization not without critics and not without significant challenge from NSA and a couple of other newcomers. But, at least PONY is working to let girls play competitive softball in NJ. ASA is doing absolutley nothing in NJ for young girls.

Correct. USSSA requires the batter-baserunner to drop the bat prior to reaching 1st base, during a live ball. However, you can do a Pedro Cerranno and hit a homerun and then carry the bat around the bags with you.

Apparently this is a SP rule. I find no mention of it in the USSSA FP rulebook.

EdJW
 

This is so unnecessary and ruined what could have been an educational and informative post. I am not an ASA umpire (yet), but the education provided by the ASA to their umpires has been significant in terms of my education as an umpire primarily from this forum.
If your only reason to be registered in this forum is to slam ASA, you are probably wasting your time because most of the Blues here are loyal and you won't change their minds. I would suggest that you register with blogspot.com and set up an anti ASA blog so that those who care and want to read your rants will have an opportunity to do so. Blogspot also provides a comments section so that other umps who read your blogs can respond.
Even though you have only been here for a little over a year, at least you can say it was eventful. After you get your new blog set up, why don't you come here one last time and let us know what the web address is so that we can visit it and read what you have to say there.

Ed, it's been nice knowing you and farewell.

Yes it is a SP rule. I guess in my mind I cant see any reason to allow someone to carry the bat around the bases if they choose to. There just isnt any reason to allow it. I can think of plenty to not allow it.

And they would be?

EdJW's grammar...
 

Since you like to slam on the English of others, I would like to point out that it's "struck a chord" and not "struck accord".

"Jobu no like breaking ball."

Re: Blue, don't toss the bat
 

Not that I'm a sue crazy person, but if a player can sue an umpire for throwing a bat, how about players who throw bats after swinging? I had a girl who nearly took my, as well as the catchers', head off. When the play ended, I went to first where she was and told her if she threw the bat like that again, I was tossing her. Coach never opened his mouth. These aren't kids, they are grownups. If the bat had hit me or the catcher, no doubt a severe injury would have occurred. Anybody ever toss anyone for it? I'm curious.

Speaking ASA

No, the player to which you referred did not violate any rule.

Depends on what he was driving. ;)

Speaking FED
The first incident results in a team warning
Subsequent incidents result in players being restricted to the bench

I have issued several team warnings

In a tournament 2 weeks ago, a coach, in anxious and serious tones, since the safety of the girls was paramount, etc., told me I had to make sure I got the bat out of the way.

I've umpired ASA in NJ for many years, also Fed for a while. No rule about dropping the bat. In ASA, a thrown bat is an out only if it prevents a fielder from making a play. However, NSA, last I looked, has a rule that if you touch 1B with the bat in your hands (live ball), you're out.

Of course, a player who consistently throws the bat and persists after warnings presents a safety issue (but not a rule issue). In a similar vein, some leagues mandate removal of the pitcher after a certain number of hit batters, and for all I know some codes even have such rules in black and white, but there's no limit in ASA.

There's no rule in MLB about maximum hit batters or how many times a bat can slip from a batter's hands. But obviously at some point—3, 4, 5 straight whacks of the catcher—something has to be done.

It can also be a cause for an ejection
 

Actually, POE 52 also says you eject the player if he intentionally throws the bat in anger. Would this be an immediate dead ball and an out as well as the ejection? Suppose he hits a pop-up and thinking he's going to be out throws his bat in anger. If the infielder (no IFR in effect here) fails to catch the ball, if the batter made it safely to 1st would they be replaced by a legal sub since they were ejected? No legal sub, then we also have an out.

If you judge it to be flagrant misconduct, he can be declared out. ASA Case Play 10.8-1.

Yes, a bat thrown in anger is another story. It doesn't have to hit anybody or interfere with a play. I was thinking of bats accidentally thrown.

I was pleased when ASA established an out for USC by a batter or runner. A runner deliberately crashing a catcher without the ball used to be an ejection, but not an out. Now it's an out and an ejection, as long as the crash occurs before the runner touches the plate. But a USC out for the offense seems to call for a corresponding "safe" for USC by the defense. As runner slides legally into 3B, F5 punches him in the nose with the ball. Besides the ejection, perhaps that should be a "safe" call for USC.

You should of told the coach that he and his lawyer are more then welcome to go move that bat as long as they do not interfere with the play.

:D

Greymule,
You said "I've umpired ASA in NJ for many years, also Fed for a while. No rule about dropping the bat. In ASA, a thrown bat is an out only if it prevents a fielder from making a play. ..."

That's not true. A discarded bat is just another part of the field. I suspect that the rule you are citing refers to a batter-runner carrying the bat and then having it slip out of their hands - then it's not discarded equipment/part of the field.

Speaking ASA

There is a penalty when the bat accidently slips from the batter's hand during a swing, follow through or backswing that prevents a defender from making a play on the ball. A bat that is simply dropped or discarded is just part of the field unless, in the umpire's judgment, the batter-runner acted in a manner to intentionally discard the bat in the path of a defender attempting to make a play. It is rare, but I've seen it happen.

In New Haven, CT here a few years ago, (Men's ASA SP) a player threw his bat in disgust. The handle end of the bat went right through a standard chain-link fence, exactly where a spectator was watching the game with his face right up against the fence. The bat went into his skull and the spectator ended up in a coma, and his life was forever changed. Everybody got sued, and the city paid a large settlement.

In New Haven, all teams are told that if someone throws a bat in a game, that player is done for the season.

I am quick with warnings to players who throw bats in any game (ASA SP, NFHS) I work.

Nsa
 

NSA prohibited batter-runners from physically holding the bat when contacting first base during a live ball situation. Up until first base, you can hold the bat as long as you wish.

Blu