The Play
 

I've done a little editing for an easier read, but Tom McCarville originally posted the play on Eteamz.

Start of play score = 9-7 top of 6th, favor the "D".

Sacs loaded. One out. Obvious extra base hit possibility by "BR".
R1 from 3rd scores. R2 from 2nd comes home looks like 9-9 but missed 3rd base on the way home.

R3 from 1st had also scored on the play.
At that point it looks like 10-9 for the "O" team.

"BR" going into 2nd after touching 1st base slows up when ball gets to the infield near 2nd base & gets in a "pickle".

"BR" got caught in a run down". Ruled out by running out of the baseline.
Out # 2.

That runner was ruled out after the R3 from 1st scored.
No runners on base & 10-9 score favoring the "O".

Then the "D" calls for an appeal on R2 for missing 3rd.

Ump rules "OUT". Then stated 3rd out & only the 1st runner scored because R2 actually made the 3rd out on appeal, therefore the following "R"'s couldn't score.
Ending top of the 6th with score 9-8 favoring the "D".
"O" wants to protest the Umps ruling.

Ump takes protest.

After the discussion re: the ruling,
he calls game because its to dark to continue.
Game over 9-8 & old "D" wins the game as "O" protests the win.

My reply from etz
 

I've got to restate this for my own clarity.

R1, R2, R3. Score 9-7. O has 7. 1 out.

R1, R2, R3 cross home. BR tagged out between 1st and 2nd for the 2nd out.

R2 is appealed for missing 3B. R2 declared out on appeal for the 3rd out.

R2's score is nullified.
R3's score is nullified (ASA 5-3-B-3 2005 book; 2006 book is at home).

Protest rejected.

Mike R, why is this not correct?

--------

After I posted the above on etz, I noticed Mike's reply that he was focused on the force aspect.

To me there are two issues.

One is - if the appeal out is a force, no runs score. I believe there's a direct quote in the book that says that the status of the play AT THE TIME OF THE APPEAL is what matters (as opposed to OBR Baseball's "at the time of the runner reaching the base" timing). In fact, I think the book specifically says that if BR is put out behind the runner in question, that the appeal is no longer a force for the purposes of this rule.

The second is - does the succeeding runner (r3 on first) score. I believe 5-5-c is the right rule, but if not, it's close to that. It says something along the lines of "No run shall score if a preceding runner is called out on appeal for the 3rd out".

So I have 1 run scoring on this play.

I also have one run scoring. Dave

I agree based on "No run shall score if a preceding runner is called out on appeal for the 3rd out""; but if I was ruling on the protest, I would have to double-check on whether it applied to whatever rule set was involved.

OK, but it must be something not obvious or Mike wouldn't have posted it.

What I am wondering is if that out is not considered a "force" out for nullifying runs since at the time she missed the base she would have only been the 2nd out. So if in this play the BR would have been safe at 2nd and there was an appeal, we would have 2 runs score correct?

So since the appeal came after the runners scored, and the BR had a timing type play for the 2nd out at the time, but 3rd out in actuality as the runner had already missed 3rd base and had an out (2nd out) waiting for appeal.

Thinking through the 4th out appeal rule to nullify runs, the only reason you can nullify all the runs is if the missed base was one that the runner was forced to and their missing the base was the 3rd out of the inning. So why I brought this up is my thinking is in the OP the runner missing 3rd would have only been the 2nd out of the inning, thus the R1 and R3's runs score.

There is no force. By rule, for the purpose of an appeal, the runner's status is that at the time of the appeal, not the infraction.

And by rule, a trailing runner cannot score if a preceding runner is the third (or fourth) out. It's just going to be a hard sell considering the run scored prior to the 2nd out. Ouch!

I thank MC for catching the paragraph I missed. One run scores.

After all this, it appears as if the umps on the field ruled correctly.

I wonder if they knew the ruling and applied it or if they were correct by accident?

One of the confusing things for me in this string was the force issue. I cannot find any circumstance where an appeal would be considered a force. All appeals are NOT a force. Now my syntax is starting to sound like the NFHS test, but I think you all understand what I am trying to say.

Bugg

A base missed that a runner was forced to is a "force out", if appealed before any succeeding runner is put out.

Bugg, change it to 2 outs, and take away the out on BR, and this is a force out on appeal, and NO runs score.

Or on a 2-out Bases loaded homer, R3 from 1st misses 2nd base and is appealed after everyone comes home and the ball is made live. The appeal on R3 is a force, and no runs score.

In ASA, if the batter is put out, all force plays are off, and no subsequent out can be a force out (excepting some TWP where a runner reinstates his force by retreating). Therefore, the appeal at 3B is not a force play. Only one run scores. But whether it was a force play or not, no runs can score behind the runner called out for missing 3B for the third out.

In OBR, the appeal at 3B would be a force play, because the runner was forced at the time he missed the bag. But the point is moot in this case, as no following runners could score anyway.

No, if the BR is retired, there can NEVER be a force out.

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

No, if the BR is retired, there can NEVER be a force out.

As I said, it would take a TWP. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles flies deep to center. Abel takes off toward 3B. F8 makes the catch and Abel returns to 2B but in his meth stupor forgets what base he had started on and continues toward 1B. As Abel is halfway back to 1B and beginning to wonder why Baker is standing on 1B, the defense throws to 2B to FORCE Abel, who had retreated and reinstated the force.

1) The BR is a R after reaching 1st, so you can take it literally even though your understanding is correct.

2) "On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured" is a rule; so if the force has been removed before the appeal is made, it is by rule no longer a force.

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

WAS forced at one point. But at the time he was called out, the force was off. ASA is different from OBR.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally. Yes. Take it literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out. But when the appeal was made, it was not a force in ASA.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

ASA case play: Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles gets a hit down the RF line. Abel scores. Baker misses 2B and advances to 3B. (Note that Abel was forced to 2B at the time he missed it.) Charles is thrown out (for the second out) trying for a double. The umpire then upholds the appeal of Baker's miss of 2B for the third out. Ruling: Abel's run scores, as the BR was put out before the appeal, so all forces are off. The third out is not a force out.

Rule on this one...

R1 on 2B. R2 on 1B. BR hits to shallow RF. All runners off, but R1 stumbles and falls (no OBS) before reaching 3B. R2 stops after rounding 2B waiting for R1 to get going again. BR rounds 1B and is heading to 2B when F4 takes the cutoff and tags BR. F4 throws to F5 at third who tags the base just before R1 finally touches 3B.

Is R1 out?

Here is a better one.

R1 on 1B.
Ground ball to F6 who "forces" R1 out, and then throws to F3 to get B-R out at 1B.

The offense appeals that R1 was not tagged out.

What do you rule?

I don't understand, since to me this reads like a simple 6-3 double play. What am I missing?

Sorry, Tony, but there is no force out

Only if it's the top of the seventh and raining. :)

That the offense is nuts. :)

If the B-R being put out on the play removes all force plays, then R1 needed to be tagged for the out to stand. Otherwise it is a mis-applicaition of POE#1.

I am sure most will think I am being silly, but if the force is removed after the fact, then why wouldn't an appeal overturn the "force" out if the runner wasn't tagged.

I can't even guess where TCan is going with this. When R1 was put out, it was a force. BR being put out erases any forces, as stated above, but does not cause all previously completed forceouts to revert. That way lies anarchy! :)

The statement earlier that "the rule stating that putting out BR removes all forces can only refer to BR being put out prior to reaching 1B" is faulty. In fact, an extremely normal play can illustrate this. R1 on first, fly ball to shallow F9. R1 is a few steps off first, when BR passes R1. BR is out (and beyond 1B). F9 fails to catch the ball.

Is R1 still forced to 2nd? Of course not.

I used to think I knew something about softball.
Guess I picked a bad day to quit drinking.

R1 on 2B. R2 on 1B. BR hits to shallow RF. All runners off, but R1 stumbles and falls (no OBS) before reaching 3B. R2 stops after rounding 2B waiting for R1 to get going again. BR rounds 1B and is heading to 2B when F4 takes the cutoff and tags BR. F4 throws to F5 at third who tags the base just before R1 finally touches 3B.

Is R1 out?

I've actually seen this type of situation called a force out. In a HS game, R1 on 1B, BR got an extra-base hit, and with his speed had actually passed 3B before R1 reached home. So because there were two runners between 3B and home, the ump rules that R1 had become "forced" at home and could be put out with a mere tag of the plate.

The protest is not upheld. The correct ruling was made. R1 scores, The tag on BR is the second out and R2 is the 3rd out on appeal, nullifying that run and the succeeding runner R1. As for ending the game due to darkness, that is correct. The game becomes official after 5 innings and since the visitors batted in the sixth and did not tie or go ahead, we have a ballgame.

Of course, you are assuming local rules. Championship play is nothing more than a suspension until the game can be resumed.

You rule R1 out, period.

Tcan: You have to consider the timing. At the time R1 is put out at 2B, the force was on so she did not have to be tagged.

The offense does not make an appeal that the defense missed the tag. This is simply not an appeal play. Read section A of POE 1 “Types of Appeals”. None of them are appeals made by the offense. They are appeals made by the defense in an attempt to get an out called on an offensive player.

Now about your original play. Since you are quoting lines out of an ASA book I am assuming you are speaking ASA. In that case I believe your ruling is incorrect.

You are missing the point of the last sentence: "On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

In the original play, at the time the appeal was made on R2 missing 3B, the force had been removed because the BR was put out prior to the appeal. The third out was NOT a force out at the time of the appeal even though at the time of missing the base the runner was forced to advance to it.

So ASA 5-5-B 1. (the provision for no runs scoring when the third out is a force) does not apply. But go down two sentences to 5-5-B 3. which says that a runner who follows a runner who becomes the third out of the inning via a proper appeal cannot score. This provision will apply to our sitch.

R1 scores as she is in front of the third out, R2 does not score as she is the third out (on appeal), and R3 does not score because she followed the runner who became the third out.

Now, if you were calling a game using NFHS rules, your ruling would be correct. NFHS 9-1-1 Exceptions list the reasons for not counting a run on the third out. Exception four states "when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out. (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score) Also NFHS 2-1-11 reads "If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance, no runs would score if it is the third out." No sentance about the timing of the play as in the ASA rule.

UmpErn and others,

I appreciate the lesson. I am now able to rule on this sitch correctly.

I withdraw my previous sitch about the offense appealing a missed tag. Obviously that is not a valid appeal. That was just an embarassing case of getting caught up on a message board thread. Not the first time I have publicly eaten crow. Probably won't be the last either.