Referee Mag Article-BU Inside Infield w/ Runner on 3rd Only
 

Ok,

I read this and cannot find it. It was in Referee Magazine in 04 or 05.

I think it was a college guy that wrote it.

He said he was experimenting with the BU coming behind the pitcher with a single runner on third and(I think) with two outs.

First, can anyone help me find the article, second-what do you think of the idea?

Joe In Michigan

Wouldn't put much value in the mechanic at any level in any game.

What would be the negatives?

Becoming a target in the biggest hole in an infield, getting turned around on a ball up the middle (BU always has 1st play in the infield), ending up in the middle of a play, being hit by a batted ball prior to it passing a fielder, not being in a position to go out on a possible catch/no catch scenario are a few that come to mind.

Oh, is that all! :D

Also, visually screening middle infielders, distracting the pitcher, making ot more difficult to get outside the runner if 3rd-HP becomes a rundown, etc.

I will use this mechanic at 10U only. At 12U, 14U, JV, or V, all of the problems Mike mentioned become significant, and the advantages you gain by moving inside nearly disappear.

At the levels where stealing home is not a possibility though, the need to be near third base decreases substantially. Also, at those levels, F4 and F6 will likely be in front of me, even if I'm inside. And it gets you much closer to the 20 times more likely play at first base.

I've seen occasional umpires go all the way back to A at 8U or 10U with R3 only. I don't like this because while the need to be near third is LESS, it is not ZERO - and you can be caught WAY out of position on that rare ball where you do need to be near 3rd.

Food for thought
 

As soon as I can find this article, I will post it for everyone to see. I cannot see any reason why I the BU would get "turned around".


Not if you are paying attention.

I work both baseball and softball...I have not been hit in baseball(even at the U13/14 level where the pitching plate is a lot closer) and the baseball can and does come at you a lot harder.


I have not seen a mechanic that allows for the BU to go out with runners on. However, my position(behind the pitching circle) wouldput me in a MUCH better position for helping on a catch/no catch scenario as I could help in more of the outfield.

As for the play at first, you have to admit that your view would be better. The snap throw back to third? Better angle, as well. There ARE posiitives to this position-there may be negatives, as well...but most of the ones that I hear don't seem to be very well thought out.

Your pal,

Joe In Michigan

If the fielders are playing at normal depth, then they are farther from the plate than you. So you either have your back to first base, or your back to the fielder. There is no way too keep both of them in your vision. So you are turning one way to watch the fielding of the ball, moving backward toward first base to get closer, and then turning 180 degrees as the ball is thrown to watch the play at first.

Pay attention all you want. You are still "in the middle of things" if ball is hit to shortstop, and in the way if the ball is hit up the middle - having to dodge before getting yourself into position.

So do I. Perhaps you noticed the difference in the size of the diamonds? THIS is the reason that being inside is normally a bad mechanic in softball, but can be workable in baseball. You might notice that in your baseball mechanics manuals, they do not recommend working inside on a 60' baseball diamond either. Same reasons as softball.

Yes, there are positives. But the negatives outweigh them, and are very real if you've tried this in a game of significant level. I suggest you work a scrimmage or three with this mechanic (at a level higher than 10U) and you'll probably find you agree with Mike and I.

This is one of those threads were someone has decided his way is better, and has only asked the question to get corroboration, not to listen to the answers. I bet he keeps using his way, because he is sure he knows more than generations of baseball and softball umpires about working inside a 60' diamond.

The mechanic for two umpires in slow [itch USSSA put the BU inside, but our UIC for slow pitch USSSA had us move to the outside because of the danger of being creamed by the batted ball, interfering with the throw from short, and being too close to a play at second. When we were inside you would actually hide behind the pitcher and get as close to second as possible (further from the batted ball). With runners on 2nd you would block their view of the pitch and hit and even possibly be in their way when they would run. I think inside works in baseball, but not in softball.

Bugg

Assumption
 

What a giant leap you are taking, there Steve. I should have waited until I got the article it before I posted my opinion. The writer is a better communicator than I am.

First of all, you assume that I AM using this way. I have used it a few times in JV ball, not varsity.

You assume that I am sure it is the best. I am not sure it is best.

It seems that a lot of umpires refuse to even consider anything different or new. Generations of baseball umpires got very close to calls at first and usually in foul territory. Just because it has been done one way for a very long time does not make it the best way.

Why can't we have a discussion without people getting surly and insulting?

Trying to call good,

Joe In Michigan

I responded solely on the basis of your responses. You asked, were given 5 immediate negatives. No umpiring sanction, baseball or softball, recommends what you propose for a 60' infield (FYI, even USSSA doesn't use this in a 60' infield, only 65' slowpitch with infielders playing at 80' +), but your response is "there may be negatives, as well...but most of the ones that I hear don't seem to be very well thought out."

In fact, they have been thought out over and over again. Almost every new alphabet soup sanction that springs up want to be different in some way, to be distinctive. Yet, no one has agreed or made that suggestion an approved mechanic. Care to guess why?

You infer that I was getting surly and insulting. In fact, your initial responses disagreeing with every negative stated made set the tone for thread. You insist it is good, despite overwhelming experience and reasons why it isn't. Now who is surly and insulting?

My thoughts, exactly, every time I read one of Mike's posts! :rolleyes:

And yet, you immediately dismissed my responses out of hand. Are you Mr. Pot or Mr. Kettle?

I've worked baseball (22 years). This is my 40th year of umpiring and I've tried quite a few things whether they were in the manual or not.

Personally, from your responses, I have to give Steve's opinion some weight. What makes you think just because you "found" something, that others haven't already been there, done that and are responding to your post with viable experiences? EXPERIENCES, not opinion.

Steve and I teach mechanics. We've learned from some of the best in ASA, and on ocassion, NCAA. What you suggested has been tried, often. It does not work on the small diamond.

Now who is assuming? I assumed nothing of the sort - but simply was offering my advice from the point of view of actually trying out this mechanic.

True, but generally, in a profession with over 100 years of experience behind it, just about everything has been tried. There are things that change over time, and usually with a reason, and based on actual usage and experience. This mechanic has been used and discarded for the reasons stated above.

Who got surly or insulting? I see nothing surly or insulting. If you find that you cannot digest disagreement with your POV, you will find EVERYONE to be surly and insulting... and then we will actually become surly and insulting.

Try to call WELL. ;) The only one that should be calling 'good' is the backjudge under the fieldgoal, and Marv Albert.

I think we're getting a little testy around here and need to get back to more gentility.

Have any of the people jumping to the conclusion that I am a moron ever considered this mechanic before this thread or, TRIED it out?

Did anyone else see the article?

Again, as I have said, I am not certain it is a better mechanic.

I am certain that I read about it in referee Magazine and I find it worth consideration and discussion.

I am certain that, in person, most umpires I have asked about this also seem to dismiss it without consideration. I am talking about respectful questions with completely dismissive answers-often with less than a hearbeat to respond.

If you look up above, only one poster found any possible positives with this mechanic.

If anything I posted offended anyone, it was not intentional. I was trying to have an actual discussion about this idea. I have about 6 years experience in FP Softball...a LOT less than a lot of the posters here. I learn a lot from a lot of more experienced guys that I have worked with. I am sorry if I gave off an impression that I am not willing to LEARN...Good Grief---If I didn't want to learn, why would I subscribe to Referee and come here?

I am trying to call GOOD because that is what Papa C said in one of his videos.

Joe In Michigan

Up until this post, I think we were giving you the benefit of the doubt, and just considering that perhaps you were inexperienced, and not a moron. But dude, if the shoe fits...

Um... did you bother to read the posts? Or did you just notice that they disagreed with you, and stop reading. I see at least THREE posts disagreeing with this mechanic that specifically mention actually USING this mechanic, and finding it to be faulty and problematic (and even describing ACTUAL problems encountered when it was tried.).

So... three people have tried it, and tell you it's not better... Three people tell you WHY it's not better, and after you denigrate those reasons, supply supporting descriptions as to why those reasons are valid. And then you, who is not certain it's better, decide that the people that have actually TRIED this are the problem?!?!?!

That's what we were doing. Discussing our experiences with it after we considered it and tried it. What more do you want?

Without consideration? Can you read?

The answers were dismissive because we've tried this. We responded quickly because it really didn't take much thought, after giving it a go. You would agree if you were speaking from ANY sort of experience with this at all... but lacking that experience with this mechanic, why do you stubbornly insist that everyone else is wrong. Why bother posting if you aren't going to listen to the input given you. We all posted in good faith, trying to help you understand why this mechanic poses problems (Heck, I even specified a small case where the mechanic DOES work, in my opinion). Yet you, again - with NO basis for disagreement - have such a huge problem taking the input, and ascribe attitudes toward those who tried to help you. Well... there's a last time for everything.

So were we.

That, sir, is an EXCELLENT question. One I'm wondering about myself. If one truly wants to learn, one should not simply disregard any contrary opinions as balderdash, especially when one lacks any true basis for such opinions through their own experience. Mike told you specifically what can be wrong with this mechanic, and your immediate response implied that he must not be paying attention if he had that problem with the mechanic... yet you've never actually tried it.

This reminds me of numerous discussions with my 6 year old daughter. "That's yucky." No it's not, you should try it. "No, I just know it's yucky." How can you know it's yucky if you won't try it. "I just know." ad infinitum.

Mcrowder,

I went back and read all of the posts. I can't see anyone other than you that has used this mechanic.

As I said, I HAVE used the mechanic. I went back and read my notes. I used the mechanic in 6 JV Double Headers and two Varsity games(I had forgotten, about the Varsity games) and in a handful of U14, U16 and U18 games.

To further address Mr. Mafia's points, from my personal experience:

1) I never got "turned around" on a ball up the middle. Maybe I am not understanding what he meant by this, but I cannot remember any circumstances where this happened. Maybe it could be explained more clearly and I might better understand this one.

2) Ending up in the middle of a play. I can see how this could happen but, it may not have to be a problem. If the infield is in, you could stay behind them, if they are back, you could be closer to second base than the circle. I am not certain that this would solve the problem. I think it could work. I did not find myself in the middle of any plays.

3) How often have any of us been hit by a batted ball in baseball? It has not ever happened to me in 12+ years-I have ahd a few close calls. On a regular baseball diamond, the BU is usually approx 70 ft away? If you employed this mechanic, you could be about the same distance away-if not even farther. Do I remember Geometry Class? the diaganol of a square is the Square Root of 2 x one side...Almost 85 feet from home plate to second base. Why would this be a problem?

4) His last point: "not being in a position to go out on a possible catch/no catch scenario" Is there a mechanic that sends you "out" with a runner on base? Am I missing something here? I think your position for seeing catch/no catch would be at least as good, if not better.

Joe In Michigan

PS I talked to Referee Magazine today, the guy said he thought he could get the article to me. Also, he said that they are finally working on putting archives on their web page!

Do what you want then. If you had to look up in your notes when you tried this, you probably don't really remember it that well... and kudos on your amazing note-keeping. I don't think I list exactly where I stood on the field in my notes. I do remember this mechanic being a problem on the balls mentioned, and fail to see how you could react on a ball hit at you that is fieldable by F6 - how do you see the catch/no-catch and move toward first base at the same time, without tripping over yourself or getting turned around (and if you're not moving toward 1st base from that position... then you've eliminated the advantage of starting there, as any umpire can get to that spot from C on a normal ground ball when the play is going to be at first base)

My only real question to this last response is... WHEN is a baseball umpire 70 feet from home plate? A and D positions are about 100-110 feet away. B and C are much farther (I'd have to get out the old trig, but quick math comes to about 150 feet). And "inside" is about 115 feet.

Just to help with the math (rounded to nearest inch)...

Softball diamond (60' base lines):

Distance from home to 2B: 84' 10"
Distance from PP to 2B: 44' 10"
Area of the square with 2B and PP at opposite corners: ~1005 sq ft

Baseball diamond (90' base lines):

Distance from home to 2B: 127' 3"
Distance from PP to 2B: 66' 9"
Area of the square with 2B and PP at opposite corners: ~2230 sq ft

Note that the area behind the pitcher's plate and second base on a baseball diamond is more than twice the size of the same area on a softball diamond.

Thanks Tom! I got the math right on the Softball diamond because I used Google calculator. I messed up the Baseball math in my head.

Mcrowder, I was using a different mechanic, of course I noted that in my notes, why wouldn't I? I only looked at my notes to see how many games I used it in. I already remembered not being in anybody's way, having a far superior angle on a half dozen throwbacks to third base and not having to call bangers at first from so far away.

Do you see a lot of Shortstops fielding balls right behind the middle of the circle? That is not a very common play in my experience.

As for catch/no catch...I thought that Mr Mafia was talking about the outfield. You have a good point that I would not be much help on infield Catch/no catch situations. But what help would I be in the traditional mechanic? As for moving toward first, you don't have to move very much, you are already in a pretty good spot.

I am not going to "do whatever I want". I am going to follow the mechanics by the book.


Joe In Michigan

PS Carl Childress wrote a series on RADICALLY revamping Baseball mechanics on this site. http://childress.officiating.com/ Mechanics 2K. When I read it, I thought he was nuts. then, I re-read it and tried it out in fall ball and I have to admit that I think he is right on every single point in those three articles. BUT, I don't use his mechanics in Varsity baseball games.

I'm talking about any ball essentially to F6's left. It doesn't have to be directly behind the middle of the circle (which would be a WORSE problem for an Umpire on the inside than any of the ones mentioned above). If you are watching the fielder here, you are facing AWAY from first base, and then have to turn and move toward 1st as the ball is in the air. Messy.

[QUOTE]As for catch/no catch...I thought that Mr Mafia was talking about the outfield. You have a good point that I would not be much help on infield Catch/no catch situations.[QUOTE]
In C, the entire play is in front of you. You can watch F6 or F4 field the ball, react to where the play is going to be going, and essentially get to where your inside mechanic has you starting, before the play is made at 1st. It's all in front of you - no turning around necessary.
Well yeah, it's a good spot... but if you aren't getting closer to first from there, what's the entire point of starting there? You have just lost the advantage of starting there, if the angle/distance for the normal play at first is not better. So now, you're giving up help on a catch/no-catch in the infield, giving up having the play in front of you, adding to the possibility that you interfere with play, and all of the other negatives mentioned... and the only positive is a minor one in that you have a slightly better angle on a pickoff at third. Um... why are you espousing this inferior mechanic again? What is your perceived plus?

That's at least the second time you've brought up CC. You need to know that he has negative credibility in the softball game.

Second, the infield action in softball is much faster and in a much smaller space than in baseball. Anyone attempting to take base umpire mechanics from baseball and apply them to softball always needs to keep this difference in mind.

One other piece of data:

Size of the infield:

Softball: 3600 sq ft
Baseball: 8100 sq ft

You can fit 2.25 softball infields inside a baseball infield.