Boo
 

I have a BOO quesion. Here's the lineup:

Able
Baker
Charlie
Delta
Edward
Frank
George
Henry
Igloo

Igloo is one first base. Able is due up to bat. Instead Charlie bats and gets a base hit, advancing Igloo to 3rd. Before the first pitch (legal or illegal) to Delta, the defense appeals batting out of order. Able is out, Baker bats but we keep Charlie on base, correct? I don't have my books handy, but from memory I recall that the rules state that you only take a player off the bases if they are the batter immediately after the one called out for failing to bat (not the words used, but that's the idea). In this case Charlie is not the batter due up after Able. The rules also state that in this case any score or advance of runners is nullified. Well we can't keep Charlie on base and nullify the advance completely. We keep Charlie at 1st and advance Igloo to 2nd. Is this correct?

Thanks!

NFHS 7-1-2 Penalty 2
When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the next pitch (legal or illegal), or prior to an intentional base on balls (S.P.), or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending. The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All runners who were not declared out must return the the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If a runner advances because of a stolen base, wild pitch, passed ball (F.P.) or an illegal pitch (F.P.) while the improper batter is at bat, such advance is legal.

Able is out.
Charlie goes back to the bench.
Igloo goes back to first base.
Baker is up.

Here's what I think.....

Able is out,
All advances are nullified, so Igloo goes back to first and Charlie goes back to the dugout,
Baker is now the correct batter.

No. The batter who should have batted is called out, and the improper batter's turn at bat is negated. In other words, Charlie is taken off the base and returned to the bench to await their proper turn at bat. Igloo is returned to first.

Everybody types faster than me. Of course, I am at work, trying to impart knowledge to a bunch of young 'uns, so I frequently get sidetracked while reading and responding to posts.

I don't have my ASA book at work, any differences between ASA and NFHS on this?

I don't agree
 

The rule book clearly states that no one shall be removed from the bases except the player who will now bat in their proper place. For example, assuming the following lineup

Able
Baker
Charlie
Delta

If Able is due up but Baker bats and reaches base, if the defense appeals before the first pitch to Charlie, Able is out and Baker is removed from the bases to bat. However, if Able is due up to bat but Charlie bats and reaches base safely, when the defense appeals Charlis is not removed because he is not the next batter. Able is out and Baker bats.

What rule set? Quote the rule number please.

Don't have my book with me
 

ASA rule set. I believe it is 7.2.x.4. I'm not sure of the rule number but I know its in rule 7 and part 4. Sorry I can't be more precise, but that should get you close.

There's your problem right there. You are operating under a misconception about the ASA rule book! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/mi...smiley-011.gif

ouch, that hurts! :)

The rule you are talking about is ASA 7-2-C-4. Here is what ASA was trying to say (quoting the NFHS book, which says it better)

And, PS... MNBlue, pollywolly, and Scott all gave you the proper ruling for your situation.

ASA 7:2;D:2:Effect states:

a)the player who should have batted is out.
b) any advance of runners and any runs scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand.
c) the next batter is the players whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat.

b) pretty much covers it here. Any advance of runners shall be nullified. Therefore, the BR shall be removed from the bases and returned to the dugout.

rwest, you are confusing two rules. You have been told the correct remedy to BOO.

The rule you are using only refers to instances where the proper batter (after calling the skipped batter out, removing the improper batter from the bases, and moving all runners back to their original bases) is on base (the result of multiple BOO's). That player is simply skipped in the batting order without penalty. Example...

Proper lineup is Able, Baker, Charlie, Dave, Evan.

Charlie comes to bat and singles. Defense says nothing.
Able then comes to bat and singles (Charlie to 2B). Defense says nothing.
Dave then comes to bat and singles. Defense protests that Baker was the proper batter. Baker is called out. Dave is sent to the dugout. Charlie is put back on 2nd, Able on 1st. Now... the proper batter after Baker is Charlie, but Charlie is on base. Charlie is simply skipped, not removed from the bases, and not an out... Dave now bats again.

ABBOTT: Well Costello, I'm going to New York with you. You know Bookie Harris, the Yankee's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team.
COSTELLO: Look Abbott, if you're the coach, you must know all the players.
ABBOTT: I certainly do.
COSTELLO: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.
ABBOTT: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names.
COSTELLO: You mean funny names?
ABBOTT: Strange names, pet names... like Dizzy Dean...
COSTELLO: His brother Daffy.
ABBOTT: Daffy Dean...
COSTELLO: And their French cousin.
ABBOTT: French?
COSTELLO: Goofe.
ABBOTT: Goofe Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...
COSTELLO: That's what I want to find out.
ABBOTT: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
COSTELLO: Are you the manager?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: You gonna be the coach too?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: And you don't know the fellows' names?
ABBOTT: Well I should.
COSTELLO: Well then who's on first?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: I mean the fellow's name.
ABBOTT: Who.
COSTELLO: The guy on first.
ABBOTT: Who.
COSTELLO: The first baseman.
ABBOTT: Who.
COSTELLO: The guy playing...
ABBOTT: Who is on first!
COSTELLO: I'm asking YOU who's on first.
ABBOTT: That's the man's name.
COSTELLO: That's who's name?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: Well go ahead and tell me.
ABBOTT: That's it.
COSTELLO: That's who?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: Look, you gotta first baseman?
ABBOTT: Certainly.
COSTELLO: Who's playing first?
ABBOTT: That's right.
COSTELLO: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?
ABBOTT: Every dollar of it.
COSTELLO: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.
ABBOTT: Who.
COSTELLO: The guy that gets...
ABBOTT: That's it.
COSTELLO: Who gets the money...
ABBOTT: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.
COSTELLO: Whose wife?
ABBOTT: Yes.
ABBOTT: What's wrong with that?
COSTELLO: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?
ABBOTT: Who.
COSTELLO: The guy.
ABBOTT: Who.
COSTELLO: How does he sign...
ABBOTT: That's how he signs it.
COSTELLO: Who?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.
ABBOTT: No. What is on second base.
COSTELLO: I'm not asking you who's on second.
ABBOTT: Who's on first.
COSTELLO: One base at a time!
ABBOTT: Well, don't change the players around.
COSTELLO: I'm not changing nobody!
ABBOTT: Take it easy, buddy.
COSTELLO: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?
ABBOTT: That's right.
COSTELLO: Ok.
ABBOTT: All right.
COSTELLO: What's the guy's name on first base?
ABBOTT: No. What is on second.
COSTELLO: I'm not asking you who's on second.
ABBOTT: Who's on first.
COSTELLO: I don't know.
ABBOTT: He's on third, we're not talking about him.
COSTELLO: Now how did I get on third base?
ABBOTT: Why you mentioned his name.
COSTELLO: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?
ABBOTT: No. Who's playing first.
COSTELLO: What's on first?
ABBOTT: What's on second.
COSTELLO: I don't know.
ABBOTT: He's on third.
COSTELLO: There I go, back on third again!
COSTELLO: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it.
ABBOTT: All right, what do you want to know?
COSTELLO: Now who's playing third base?
ABBOTT: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base?
COSTELLO: What am I putting on third.
ABBOTT: No. What is on second.
COSTELLO: You don't want who on second?
ABBOTT: Who is on first.
COSTELLO: I don't know.
ABBOTT & COSTELLO: Third base!
COSTELLO: Look, you gotta outfield?
ABBOTT: Sure.
COSTELLO: The left fielder's name?
ABBOTT: Why.
COSTELLO: I just thought I'd ask you.
ABBOTT: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya.
COSTELLO: Then tell me who's playing left field.
ABBOTT: Who's playing first.
COSTELLO: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field?
ABBOTT: No, What is on second.
COSTELLO: I'm not asking you who's on second.
ABBOTT: Who's on first!
COSTELLO: I don't know.
ABBOTT & COSTELLO: Third base!
COSTELLO: The left fielder's name?
ABBOTT: Why.
COSTELLO: Because!
ABBOTT: Oh, he's centerfield.
COSTELLO: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team?
ABBOTT: Sure.
COSTELLO: The pitcher's name?
ABBOTT: Tomorrow.
COSTELLO: You don't want to tell me today?
ABBOTT: I'm telling you now.
COSTELLO: Then go ahead.
ABBOTT: Tomorrow!
COSTELLO: What time?
ABBOTT: What time what?
COSTELLO: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching?
ABBOTT: Now listen. Who is not pitching.
COSTELLO: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name?
ABBOTT: What's on second.
COSTELLO: I don't know.
ABBOTT & COSTELLO: Third base!
COSTELLO: Gotta a catcher?
ABBOTT: Certainly.
COSTELLO: The catcher's name?
ABBOTT: Today.
COSTELLO: Today, and tomorrow's pitching.
ABBOTT: Now you've got it.
COSTELLO: All we got is a couple of days on the team.
COSTELLO: You know I'm a catcher too.
ABBOTT: So they tell me.
COSTELLO: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?
ABBOTT: Now that's the first thing you've said right.
COSTELLO: I don't even know what I'm talking about!
ABBOTT: That's all you have to do.
COSTELLO: Is to throw the ball to first base.
ABBOTT: Yes!
COSTELLO: Now who's got it?
ABBOTT: Naturally.
COSTELLO: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it?
ABBOTT: Naturally.
COSTELLO: Who?
ABBOTT: Naturally.
COSTELLO: Naturally?
ABBOTT: Naturally.
COSTELLO: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.
ABBOTT: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who.
COSTELLO: Naturally.
ABBOTT: That's different.
COSTELLO: That's what I said.
ABBOTT: You're not saying it...
COSTELLO: I throw the ball to Naturally.
ABBOTT: You throw it to Who.
COSTELLO: Naturally.
ABBOTT: That's it.
COSTELLO: That's what I said!
ABBOTT: You ask me.
COSTELLO: I throw the ball to who?
ABBOTT: Naturally.
COSTELLO: Now you ask me.
ABBOTT: You throw the ball to Who?
COSTELLO: Naturally.
ABBOTT: That's it.
COSTELLO: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don't Know. I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know! He's on third and I don't give a darn!
ABBOTT: What?
COSTELLO: I said I don't give a darn!
ABBOTT: Oh, that's our shortstop.

:) Igloo is not on first...Who is. :)

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This is a very clear-cut scenario. Upon the appeal, Able is out. All advancement by any R/BR is negated.

Igloo is now on 1B with one out more than at the beginning of the play. The next three batters are Baker, Charlie and Delta.

Rule 7.2.D.2 ONLY. No other rules are applicable to this scenario.

Thanks!
 

Your explanation makes more sense then the ASA rulebook. Its a little confusing to me. When it says "No runner shall be removed from the base occupied except the batter runner who has been taken off the base by the umpire as in (2) above to bat in the proper place", I was interpreting that to mean that the batter-runner should only be removed to bat if he was the proper batter (i.e. the one after the batter called out failing to bat).

I don't think it is the book that's confusing :)

If appealed properly, there was no BR to bring back because, upon the appeal, the most recent play with the exception of any outs is negated. All offensive players return to their position at the TOP That includes the person who put the ball into play.

So what are you implying, that I'm the confusing one? :)

There are many who confuse this rule (or, these rule subsections).

I swear to God this is a true story. I was on the field next door. In one of the WA state HS tournaments in 2004 (a loser out game), Able should have led off, but Baker batted instead. 7 runs later, defense protested BOO. Umpires took all 7 runs off the board, declared three outs. Neither team said a word because the umpires, as wrong as they were, explained their "reasoning" in a satisfactory manner.

Team losing the 7 runs lost game by a run...

True enough, Mike, but...

swallow hard, now... :eek:

The NFHS book says it better, and in a way that is less likely to result in an erroneous ruling.

I don't know how, I read this rule in ASA as quite clear. Maybe that's because I only need to deal with one rule book.

Did 12u FP tournament last weekend. Had batter strike out swinging third strike. I give strike signal announce 1 out. The next batter steps in and takes several pitches before getting a single. Def coach asks me if the runner on first was the same one that struck out. Yes it was, BOO remove runner and call out the batter that failed to bat. Off coach bounces off the walls telling me I didn’t tell the batter was out. I tell the coach I give the count several times during an at bat, When she struck out I said one out. I don't control who comes to the plate that is your job.