NCAA Rules. Runner on third.

Batter-runner hits a ground ball to F6. F6 throws to first. The throw is low and F3 cannot hold onto the ball and the ball rolls away. Clearly a safe and I do not signal anything. The batter-runner believes that F3 caught the ball and thinks she is out. She heads for the 3rd base dugout and is approximately half way between home plate and 1st base. The defense realizes the batter-runner is off the base, grabs the ball and tags her.

I ruled this as an out and would like to hear what you all think about this situation. I ruled that batter-runner had liability to be put out in this case. The rule that allows a batter-runner to run through first did not apply to this particular situation. This was a mistake made by the offensive player.

I also have an out.

Why did you not signal, and verbalize, SAFE?

Bob

The way you describe it I too have an out .
You cant signal anything as the BR has not completed her running . You have to wait for the end of the play .
In this case a tag which you indicated as an out .

Great to see you back on the board whiskers_ump .
From all Umpires in New Zealand .

The ball was not caught by F3 and the ball rolled away, well clear of the first base area. Since when do we signal a safe on these types of situations?

BLU_IN What are you doing up at this hour ?
At least here in New Zealand it is 8.40 pm . Nearly bed time

Couldn't sleep.

No ball, no call.

Besides, what is that base coach doing over there other than signaling "safe" on every play? Sounds like a team problem they need to address, not a umpire issue.

I agree. The offense has a coach right there to instruct the runner.

However, my ASA training is going to come out here. As a matter of preventive umpiring, even if I see the ball missed or rolling away, and the runner seems to be searching for an idea of what just happened, I will offer a mild safe and signal. You know, sometimes the ball comes out of the glove toward you and the coach cannot see the ball on the ground. As umpires, when this happens we ocassionally have to ask for help when the ball is on the other side of the play, so I see no problem in providing the coach with the same courtesy when necessary.

did the runner stop before reaching 1st base and then head towards the dugout? If so.. out. If she ran through the base, then started towards the dugout, isn't she protected unless she makes an attempt to advance to 2nd?

And yes the base coach needs to get his/her thumb out.

kcs

OK - I am confused here maybe I am not reading this correctly.

Did the runner get to first base? Was there a play involving the runner at first? I guess I am trying to figure out why there was no signal of safe, if the runner had made it to first.

I can understand not making a call if the runner stopped on the way to first, but why would you not make a call if the runner was at first?

See Steve's post above. No ball, no call. This is the mechanic being taught at the upper levels of play.

That is good to know. I have been making the safe call on dropped balls. Does this only apply to 1st or also bases where a force would be in effect?

So if there is a play at 1st and 1B drops the ball you dont even make a call?

Why would that be the preferred technique? Is the runner to assume that they are safe if there is not a call?

The theory is (correct me if I'm wrong, Mike)that if the ball is rolling around loose on the field where everybody can see it, there is no need for a call. We don't give a safe signal on a fly ball that clearly hits the ground in the outfield.

However, as Mike alluded to, if the ball just pops out of F3's glove and is lying on the ground near her feet where it is not clearly visible to everyone, a verbal call and signal is required.

Anytime the defender doesn't have possession of the ball, and it is apparent to all participants, then the rule of thumb would be not to make a call.

Yes, but I think inherent in the definition of this play was the fact that ALL participants (namely the batter-runner) did NOT, in fact, see the ball. A mild signal might have been in order. But the lack of signal is certainly no reason to protect the runner. I have an out on this one as well.

on this play
 

On this play, it was clear that the ball was not caught. The throw from F6 was in the dirt, and on the attempted scoop the ball came out and rolled about 7-10 feet from F3.

IMO, this is the same philosophy as not calling obvious foul balls.

Does the BR really need to see it? After all, she has her own personal coach there to direct her movements.

But Andy was correct. Not talking about balls simply dropped, but those which have passed by or are rolling away from the play that should be apparent to everyone.

Why an out?
 

I am assuming some things here, like if you ruled the runner safe, I would assume that the reached first base. They are allowed to overrun first base without being in jeapardy unless they make an attempt toward second; from your post,it does not appear that there was an attempt to advance toward second. So why would the runner be in jeopardy of being tagged out?

I might live with this being interpreted that the runner abandoned their base, but I still can't see how you would consider the runner in jeopardy.

I agree with all the mechanics discussed. "No ball, no call" for a ball that eludes the first baseman and it is apparent to everyone that the ball is loose. On one that the first baseman drops and it relatively close to first and they can retrieve quickly, I have a point, "ball's on the ground, safe" verbal call.

Re: Why an out?
 

Glen,

I don't like cheap outs; I think it is pretty clear that the runner is confused by the call, not trying to advance.

No cheap out....What's the coach doing?

Maybe the coach was confused by the no call too. The times I have witnessed these types of things, there is confusion over the ball location and umpire call. Maybe this one is out of the ordinary.

The reference is an NCAA game with an NCAA coach, not some 10U tournament.

If this coach isn't on the ball enough to catch this and have the runner return to 1B, then the school should be looking for a new coach.

Also, a BR may overrun 1B, but they are to immediately return to the base or advance, not meander around the field until they are ready to commit.

The play, initial no call and out seems obvious to me.

Obviously you haven't done a whole lot of D-III NCAA softball :)

Nor do I want to. :)

However, I still don't believe that the NCAA level is an excuse for poor base coaching.

I was reading through this thread and was amazed at this.

Are you saying that NCAA umpires are taught to signal NOTHING when ...

the BR reaches first before and the defense has failed to secure the ball in time while in contact with the bag? How odd!

Why would the offense not get the benefit of "Safe!" call in this instance? There is nothing pending. At the time the BR crossed the bag the defense had not yet gained possession of the ball and tagged the bag. That's just about the DEFINITION of being safe - isn't it?

She's safe! Why not say so?

Am I missing something? It seems a "no call" would only serve to create confusion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 7th, 2005 at 11:40 AM]

The NCAA is only trying to eliminate extraneous, obvious calls. If the whole ball park can see that the runner is safe, there is no call. The line between call and no-call will be a little different for each umpire and will certainly vary as an umpire gets used to using the no-call. It is just another level on the call chart (ie. overhand sell, vocal hammer, non-vocal hammer, no-call, non-vocal safe, vocal safe, sell safe) that NCAA umpires are expected to put in their bag.

Yes, you are missing something.

We are not talking about close plays and a bobbled ball. We are talking about a throw to first that gets by F3 and rolls to the fence while the BR slows down after running through the bag. The guys in the space station can see the runner is safe, so why should the umpire stand there looking at a vacant space on the field giving a safe signal?

Part of this is to allow the umpire to give more of a priority in following the ball and repositioning themselves for a possible following play.

Same thing with an obvious foul ball. If it's over the backstop, the stands and onto the neighboring field, why is there a need for a big foul call? Unless there are runner's moving or a fielder heading toward a fence, there is no reason for such a call. Reach in the bag and get another ball.