Ok guys what do we have??

Tie game, Home team last inning bases loaded batter hits home-run over fence with 1 out R1 from 3rd comes in touches home PU calls "BALL GAME" none of the other runners complete their run to the next base, players line up in the field of play, umpires still on the field, pitcher comes over makes proper appeals on runners not going to next base.

2 Outs on R2 and R3 by force tie ball game? or

Game over run scores when PU calls "BALL GAME" umpire mistake. Would visitors be able to protest it umpire did not grant the appeals or home team if umpire held up the appeals??


Don

Nope, this is a legitimate appeal and the umpire should honor it. Looks like your buying the beer, 'cause you're going to extra innings.

Who cares if the umpire said, "BALL GAME"? That means nothing.

A batter is supposed to be out on three strikes and the umpire may call strike three. Does that make the batter automatically out? Not if the pitch was not caught in flight and the rules allow a BR to attempt to advance to first.

If a ball leaves playable territory on a play at 1st base and the umpire says, "Third base, runner!", does that relieve the runner of the responsibility to touch 2nd base?
No, it doesn't.

This is just one more reason for umpires to keep their mouths shut when there is no valid reason to open them.

If the first appeal is made to second base on R3, does this remove the force on R2 at 3rd, thereby making the appeal to 3rd moot, since R2 is now entitled to return to 2nd, thus allowing the run to score?

"BALL GAME"
 

Runner R3 on 2B, batter has 1-ball, 1-strike, count, with two outs. The plate umpire calls the next pitch a strike, pumping the third strike. The runner R3 steps off the base and is tagged out by a defensive player. Is R3 out?

Bases loaded. 1 out. Umpire signals home run & tells the teams "ball game" after the RBI from third scores. The runners stop running, and the defense appeals for a force out to negate the winning run. Does the run score?

Speaking ASA, in both cases, ASA 10-6-C gives the umpire the choice of rectifying the situation if he thinks that the umpire's call placed the runners in jeopardy.

The correct action on the part of the umpire, IMO, would be to rectify the situation caused by his call of "BALL GAME."

True, he should not have said that, but he did, and it placed the offense in jeopardy.

There is a certain bit of controversy on this since at the time of the play, both runners were forced to the next base. My interpretation is as you have stated.

If the defense does the appeals <b>in the wrong order</b>, that is, if they appeal the out at 2nd before the out at 3rd, then the appeal at 3rd is no longer a "force" play and the run would score. Just as the defense must tag a runner forced to vacate a base before they tag the base, they must appeal the forced runners in the proper order to retain the "force".

Umpire judgment
 

Taking the play by the book & ignoring the umpire's call of "BALL GAME" is an umpire not facing the music for <b>his</b> mistake, IMO.

True, the players are in jeopardy of being appealed out if they do not complete the circuit of the bases (ASA 8-3-I).

However, the umpire in the situation described needs to consider if his erroneous call of "BALL GAME" placed the runners in jeopardy - i.e. whether they would have completed the circuit of the bases were it not for his call. To me, it appears that he did place the runners in jeopardy with an erroneous call and he must rectify that.

Re: Umpire judgment
 

Dakota,
How can you fix that? Do you mean never do that again?
mick

Re: Re: Umpire judgment
 

Application of rule 10-6-C usually requires placing runners back in a non-jeopardy position that they left due to the umpire's error.

In this case, it is a game-winning home run, that the umpire's error turned into a run-nullifying appeal of runners not completing their base running duties.

Remedy: Disallow the appeal. Place the runner's back on base to complete their run. Assuming all bases are properly touched, score 4 runs. Home team wins. Sign the visiting team's coach's protest scoresheet.

Re: Re: Re: Umpire judgment
 

Dakota,
That sounds easy enough. Thanks.
We have no Fed ball U.P. where I live.
But we have walleyes.
mick

Don, There is one piece of this "puzzle" I am missing in your description of that play.Did the defensive team leave the field of play before they made thier appeal?
If the appeal was proper,I agree with most the replies that as an umpire you correct the error that allowed a team an advantage.If the appeal was made after the defense left the field,the umpire can deny the appeal and save himself an explanation for his error.If the baserunners headed directly off the field after the ball went over the fence prior to the umpire saying "ball game"I would be inclined to allow the appeal if done properly.But as an umpire,realizing my error caused confusion and placed the offense at risk due to my actions,I would certainly correct my call.

Jeff

No, techically speaking the infield line-up for hand slaps in the infield when the pitcher walked over to the umpire and asked for the appeals

What happen is the home team protested but played the extra inning and believe it or not ended the extra inning with another grand-slam and every runner touch all bases this time. So no protest was done

Just one more note even though the PU called "Ball Game" it was very evident even though this was Men's A ball that they did not know they had to advance so with or without the PU call I feel the runners would have not advanced except the guy that came in from 3rd.

Thanks for the replies

Don

[Edited by oppool on Apr 25th, 2001 at 05:15 PM]

I'm standing by my call. Do you honestly believe that the 2 runners and a BR all heard this umpire make a statement that is not even recongnized as a "call" and simultaneously stopped running? I doubt it.

I've been there as a player and an umpire. These runners also have coaches to direct them what to do. NOTHING alleviates a runner's responsibility to touch ALL the bases in proper order. The umpire's erroneous declaration did NOT place the runners in jeopardy as this was an over-the-fence home run and they were entitled to advance without liability.

Sorry, but the offense is just as responsible as all other participants to know the game and the rules which apply.

I agree with Mike on this........

The onus is on the offense to properly touch the bases in correct order. I don't think the call of "ballgame" by the umpire put anyone in jeopardy. This is not the same as a runner called out stealing 2nd when the BR receives ball 4 and then gets tagged while off the base thinking she was out. In this situation......the "incorrect" out call and subsequent out can be rectified.

This is Men's A ball............I do not think the call by the umpire put them in jeopardy.

Joel

Well, now there is more information...
 

I call JO girls fastpitch, some of the team are very young, so that perspective frames my thinking.

Applying ASA 10-6-C is an umpire's judgment. Certainly, for men's A, a valid judgment would be that the umpire's erroneous call did NOT place them in jeopardy, they just didn't execute properly.

Add to this the judgment expressed by Don that "it was very evident even though this was Men's A ball that they did not know they had to advance so <u>with or without the PU call I feel the runners would have not advanced</u> ..."

Umpire's judgment - call of BALL GAME had no bearing on the actions of the runners. Clearly, then, allow the appeal.

Do the same thing with a team of 10U girls, with coaches who are also learning, then I stand by my judgment that applying 10-6-C is correct.

Of course, that begs the question: who in these two 10U teams would know they could even appeal this? ;)

Re: Well, now there is more information...
 

Only those 10U coaches who study the rules and visit this forum like me I guess :)

Dakota,

Not trying to be smart, but how may outda park home
runs have you seen in 10U. I understand the point
you are making is the jeopardy thing.

Depends on what you mean ...
 

...by out of the park!

I've seen lots of 10U "home runs". You know, nice little fly ball into the outfield followed by 4-5 errors & overthrows. Throw to F5 goes "outa da park" - there you go - THAT'S GAME ;)

Actually, I was just explaining why I just breezed right past the fact that this was an adult game being discussed.

Softball must have REALLY STRANGE rules.

I can't speak for the other organizations, but to the best of my knowledge, ASA rules are so plain and the book is very easy to understand (as long as you only read what they write), other game's rules aren't even in the same league.

Softball, regardless of sanctioning body, is one of the few sports where the majority have an overseeing organization at the national level to provide leadership and standardization of the rules and mechanics of their officiating corps.

Baseball is a perfect example. Whether you are citing OBR, NAPBL or Jim Evans, Little League or Babe Ruth, you may get 50 different interpretations in 50 different states on one particular rule.

Go visit the baseball boards and see constant arguments involving a multitude of interpretations and another set of arguments five-fold on who is interpreting the rule correctly.

I'll stick with softball, thank you very much!

Mike,

It's taken the baseball guys 32 replies to figure out how to gave a 3 and 2 count so I dont feel to bad that we have 18 replies on this. Huh?


Taking it easy

Don

Here's why I made the comment about softball rules. I was just curious as to what differences there in softball rules that would cause this to be called differently.


In OBR, rule 4.09 states that when the winning run is scored in the last half-inning as a result of any play with the bases full which forces the the runner to advance from third, the umpire shall not declare the game over until the runner form third has touched home and the batter-runner has touched first. There is no requirement that other runners advance.

In the penalty section it states "If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, THE RUN SHALL COUNT, but the offending player shall be called out."

This is exactly the situation described. One out. Bases full. Batter-runner didn't touch first. Runner from third did touch home. In baseball, the run counts. The game is over.

In the playoffs, Robin Ventura was essentially ruled out for abandonment following his didn't-run-it-out grand slam. The game was still over. The Mets still won. The score was adjusted accordingly.

ASA v OBR
 

Here is the crux of the debate, from my perspective:

1. ASA rules define the play on BR at first as a force play (unlike OBR). 8-8-G.

2. ASA rules require all base runners to complete their duties, regardless. 8-8-G

3. ASA rules allow appeals on missed bases any time up to the time all infielders leave fair territory or umpires leave the field. 8-8 EFFECT F-I

4. ASA rules allow umpires to rectify any situation where an erroneous call by the umpire placed the runner or batter-runner in jeopardy. 10-6-C.

This much is clear: if the umpire had not called “BALL GAME” the appeals would be valid, and done properly, could have nullified the run and forced the game into extra innings.

The debate was whether the umpire’s call placed the runners in jeopardy, and if so whether therefore this should be rectified.

Answer: (IMO) umpire’s judgment. If in his judgment, he placed the runners in jeopardy, disallow the appeals, game over. If in his judgment, these players were not confused by the call (i.e. they decided on their own to quit running and start celebrating) then allow the appeals, batter up!

Re: ASA v OBR
 

Dakota,

My only problem with this is:

A. The term "ball game" has no official standing.

B. How can runners who are entitled to advance without liability to be put out be placed into jeopardy. For that matter, because this was a dead ball situation, they could have all returned and touched their respective bases before any appeal could be honored.

Now, if any of them crossed paths, they could be ruled out for "passing" another active runner or, if they left playable territory, they could be declared out. However, all it would take would one runner to legally return and touch the base to allow the game to end and the appeal would not be effective.

Well,
 

I didn't mean to restart the debate. I was only trying to explain to our BB friend why there <u>was</u> a debate!

OK, I got it - the rules are different.

Nice research Dakota, you really got into that one.

Rich,
Yeah, they are definitely different games. Talk to Roger, he's got a nice (and short) summary for high school ball as to the rule differences between BB & SB.