who's call?

[outathm]

ASA 16U showcase. R1 on 3b when BR hits ball to F3. F3 fields the ball and looks R1 back to 3rd. BR is tagged by F3. At this point both my partner and I call the BR out on the tag. After the game my partner and I talk and he is under the impression that the call is his. I say that the call is mine. My reasoning is that he needs to concentrate on the potential call at home. I also feel it's first play in the infield, not to home plate type situation. What do you all think?

[MNBlue]

I don't know if it is an approved mechanic, but when I have my pre-games we decide that prior to the begginning of the running lane the BR tag is the PU's call and after the beginning of the running lane it is the BU's call. Your situation tells me that you were probably set up in the 'C' slot and had a decent angle on the play, however depending on the tag, you could be at a disadvantage that the PU would not have. If I was the PU, depending on the position of the BR (in relation to the running lane), it would be your call with the PU ready with help should you need it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by outathm
ASA 16U showcase. R1 on 3b when BR hits ball to F3. F3 fields the ball and looks R1 back to 3rd. BR is tagged by F3. At this point both my partner and I call the BR out on the tag. After the game my partner and I talk and he is under the impression that the call is his. I say that the call is mine. My reasoning is that he needs to concentrate on the potential call at home. I also feel it's first play in the infield, not to home plate type situation. What do you all think?

Unless it is in the vicinity of the plate, the BU owns this call.

[Andy]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Unless it is in the vicinity of the plate, the BU owns this call.

Mike - I was taught the same way that MNBlue mentions above, ie the call is divided by the beginning of the running lane.

What would be your definintion of "vicinity of the plate"?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Andy

Mike - I was taught the same way that MNBlue mentions above, ie the call is divided by the beginning of the running lane.

What would be your definintion of "vicinity of the plate"?

To start, I don't know how many times I've seen a 3' lane marked.

My idea of vicinity is where the PU can see and make a good call without placing them out of position for a possible play on the runner advancing from third. Simpler, something that happens nearly immediately after the ball is put into play. The BR gets 2-3 steps, he belongs to the other umpire because the PU cannot get into a position to make that call properly and be set for a play at home.

[outathm]

Thanks Mike,
I knew the ASA would get a response from you, O was looking for yours since I had 6 hours of riding home with Serg to ask him.

[Andy]

Mike - agreed that the 3' running lane is not always marked or marked properly, but we all know where it is supposed to be.

Your definition and reasoning for it on this play makes perfect sense and I don't disagree with you.

In this particular scenario, we had a runner on third to start the play and the BU in C position. In your opinion or teaching, would the coverage on this play change if the BU was starting in the A or B position? Or would you cover it the same way for the sake of consistency?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Andy
Mike - agreed that the 3' running lane is not always marked or marked properly, but we all know where it is supposed to be.

Your definition and reasoning for it on this play makes perfect sense and I don't disagree with you.

In this particular scenario, we had a runner on third to start the play and the BU in C position. In your opinion or teaching, would the coverage on this play change if the BU was starting in the A or B position? Or would you cover it the same way for the sake of consistency?

No, it would not change. The priority call for the PU is the play at home. If the BU is coming inside the diamond as s/he should be, there is not that much distance and probably a good angle. The A or B position is just going to give the BU a closer starting point.

Unless the BR moves to one side or the other, odds are the PU isn't going to see the tag without moving up the line with the BR. This takes him/her out of position or possibly puts him/her right in the middle of a play at the plate. That shouldn't happen. The out at 1B is not as important as botching a call at the plate.

[outathm]

Mike:

I had the same train of thought, the PU needs to stay home and concentrate on that play. S/he needs to have the plate play potential as his/her priority.

Thanks for backing my argument, and letting me know I was right.

Rich

[Blu_IN]

While I would agree that it is the base umpire's call up the line, why wouldn't the plate umpire be able to assist in the tag if he/she sees it. A simple point and vocal of "tag" would aid the base umpire who is running into the diamond to get position for the play. This could prove especially beneficial on a tag to the side of the runner. Front and back tags would be better seen by the base umpire but a tag to the runners side would not be nearly as easy to see and call from the bases.

[CelticNHBlue]

Let's stay focused on calling priorities here. What we do not want are two officials making calls on the same play at the same time. This is why this is a staple of the pre-game conference. To steal the NCAA mantra 'call in your zone, see in all zones'.

As Mike pointed out, it is the plate umpire's responsibility 'near' the plate. Defining 'near' will be determined at the pre-game by the officials (mine happens to be more that two to three steps). The 3-foot lane is often used as a guide because you have a physical representation to look to. However, it was also mentioned that this is seldom available. When I see a play made in the 'grey' area (when the play is moving away from me) or beyond my calling area, I immediately look to my partner. If s/he does not make a call, now I step in and make the call. In these 'grey' cases, I always hesitate and defer to my partner but am ready to:

1 - Make the call if my base umpire does not
2 - Make the call when my base umpire comes to me with a live ball appeal (this looks great, by the way)
3 - Have a discussion with my partner after a coach has excersized her/his appeal.

Ideally, the call is made correctly when the play happens. But inserting yourself into a call, even just to assist, can have consequences. For example, if the tag was missed, I don't jump on a missed tag call, because my partner may make an out call . Or, as you mentioned Blu, call 'TAG' and have my base umpire calling no tag. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible.

An aside about the live ball appeal -

I like the live ball appeal on (sweep) tags on the line and pulled foot at first. If the base umpire has an out, but needs to certain of the last piece of the puzzle, and the plate umpire has the angle and position to see it, this works great, and as I mentioned, looks fabulous. There may be no better show of good teamwork than when this mechanic is properly applied.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CelticNHBlue
Let's stay focused on calling priorities here. What we do not want are two officials making calls on the same play at the same time. This is why this is a staple of the pre-game conference. To steal the NCAA mantra 'call in your zone, see in all zones'.

As Mike pointed out, it is the plate umpire's responsibility 'near' the plate. Defining 'near' will be determined at the pre-game by the officials (mine happens to be more that two to three steps). The 3-foot lane is often used as a guide because you have a physical representation to look to. However, it was also mentioned that this is seldom available. When I see a play made in the 'grey' area (when the play is moving away from me) or beyond my calling area, I immediately look to my partner. If s/he does not make a call, now I step in and make the call. In these 'grey' cases, I always hesitate and defer to my partner but am ready to:

1 - Make the call if my base umpire does not
2 - Make the call when my base umpire comes to me with a live ball appeal (this looks great, by the way)
3 - Have a discussion with my partner after a coach has excersized her/his appeal.

Ideally, the call is made correctly when the play happens. But inserting yourself into a call, even just to assist, can have consequences. For example, if the tag was missed, I don't jump on a missed tag call, because my partner may make an out call . Or, as you mentioned Blu, call 'TAG' and have my base umpire calling no tag. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible.

An aside about the live ball appeal -

I like the live ball appeal on (sweep) tags on the line and pulled foot at first. If the base umpire has an out, but needs to certain of the last piece of the puzzle, and the plate umpire has the angle and position to see it, this works great, and as I mentioned, looks fabulous. There may be no better show of good teamwork than when this mechanic is properly applied.

Speaking of priorities, your points are all good. However, we are talking about a play with a runner on 3B. That is the priority for the PU. As the PU, once the BR steps away from the plate area, I'm moving to a holding zone just north of the RH batter's box watching the play develop up the 1B line while preparing to move one way or the other depending on the runner's action and fielder's reaction.

[CelticNHBlue]

IRISHMAFIA
However, we are talking about a play with a runner on 3B. That is the priority for the PU.

Absolutely correct by the book, however I also address this in my pre-game. As a plate umpire in this case (runner at third, play is on the runner back into third) I like my base umpire to take that call because:

1 - s/he is in position to (nearly) get a 90 degree angle
2 - s/he is certainly closer to the play than I will be

Again, here we have a play on the line and the tag may be applied to the foul side of the line and I may still have the best look/angle, but I will give first priority to my partner (runner moving away from me) and only step in when necessary. This also allows me to be in a better position if the runner advances to the plate as I don't have to retreat to my position (even just a couple of steps) while watching for obstruction (runner deviates) and the developing play which may very well bring me to third base extended because the ball is coming from the right side and the runner will most likely slide away from the ball.

IRISHMAFIA
As the PU, once the BR steps away from the plate area, I'm moving to a holding zone just north of the RH batter's box watching the play develop up the 1B line while preparing to move one way or the other depending on the runner's action and fielder's reaction.

Naturally, the play will dictate your immediate position, but when the first play is clearly at first (and in this case the first baseman is waiting for the batter-runner to tag her/him), I don't like to move too far from the first base extended because of your sweep tag/pulled foot/out of baseline responsibilities and because I have help at third with a runner returning to the bag. By staying closer to the first base extended postition, you give a stronger perception that you are able to make a proper call on a play on the line and you don't give up anything on positioning for a play at the plate.

Basically, I don't see any need to go up the line at all in these cases. My only responsibility to the runner at third (as agreed in the pre-game) will be when they come to the plate so moving away from the plate serves no purpose.

In a similar scenario, I may cheat a little more up the line, as you describe, with a runner on second only who may have a play made on them coming into third where I have the natural 90 and it is only a matter of getting up the line as soon as the play brings me there (first throw or after force at first). But again, once the runner rounds third, I give that responsibility to my base umpire who, if moving properly, will be near the 2nd-3rd baseline for a (possible) call at first and can turn and follow the play and be in position in only a few steps. JMO

I think we are to the point of splitting hairs on positions while the general mechanics are agreed upon. As it relates to the original question, I think the concensus is that the point at which the base umpire takes priority from the plate umpire on the batter-runner being tagged between home and first is best determined by the crew in the pre-game and may vary anywhere from a few feet from home to the start of the three foot lane.