ASA SP 12" Men
R1 on 2nd
R2 on 1st
Batter hits slow roller between Home and 3rd - F1 fields ball and overthrows 3rd - The ball bounces off F5 and ends up going out of play about 50 feet away (F1 really threw it hard for such a short throw)- This field only has fences that extend about 20 feet beyond the bases, anything outside the fence is out of play
I am only ump
I award R1 and R2 home and BR 3rd
Defense Captain comes to me and asks if I saw R2 touch 2nd before the throw, which of course I could not since I was watching the play. The rule is 2 bases from the last base touched at the time of the throw. So I put R2 back on 3rd and BR on 2nd.

Of course, now offensive captain goes wild. I explain call and it quiets. Next batter gets hit that scores both R2 and previous BR, so point is moot.

1) Did I get the call right in the end?
2) Should I have just left the call the way I had it, even if I wasn't sure it was right?

Sounds to me like you (ultimately) called it correctly.

I don't do a lot of slow pitch so correct me if I'm wrong. Since the throw from F1 was the initial throw by an infielder, isn't the award two bases from the time of the pitch? It certainly doesn't seem possible that any runner could have reached a base before F1 threw the ball. It seems to me that R1 gets home, R2 gets third and BR gets 2nd base here.

ASA, NFHS, and NCAA rules are standardized; two bases from the time the throw leaves the throwers hand. With runners possibly stealing on the pitch release in fastpitch, and 60' to 65' bases, the OBR interpretation just doesn't work.

Now, in this case, the result is the same; and, I would have to be SURE before allowing a runner a base award based on a base maybe touched before a throw is made. But, it can happen, and the rules allow for it. I don't call NSA, so I can't state the rules are different.

In ASA it's from the time of throw. 8-5-G

Rule, and survivability
 

SRW will attest that in our training last year we had a rather heated argument about the rule and about making this call from the standpoint of survivability.

The rule is indeed two bases from the time of the throw.

Especially with one-umpire mechanics it is going to be damned hard to know whether that runner had indeed made it to second before the throw was made.

For survivabilities' sake, especially with a single umpire, a "rule of thumb" is: if it is the first throw from the infield (as in the scenario provided), two bases from the time of the pitch will keep you out of trouble.

More than one umpire will attest that even with two umpires, this rule of thumb will keep you out of trouble. It is generally accepted practice, and I wish the rule would be changed back to that - especially if the first throw is made by an infielder [including the pitcher (who is making a play on a batted or thrown ball) and the catcher].

In fact, I just had this scenario last night, and the offensive coach told his runner to stay at 3rd even before I did. Slow roller to 2nd, and the runner at first was flying (she may have left early, but that is for another thread). Working alone, I can't be sure that she had not hit 2nd prior to the throw that eventually went out of play (it was a real slow roller, and was bobbled by the 2nd baseman a couple of times). As soon as I called "dead ball" I hear the 3rd base coach direct his runner to stay at 3rd. Now, of course, his runner may have just been on the 1st base side of second at the time of the throw, but I'm pretty sure that she had hit the bag. I thought at the time, "good call coach".

[Edited by streamdoc on Jul 8th, 2005 at 12:02 AM]

Re: Rule, and survivability
 

Not if you are wrong. And if an umpire quotes that has his ruling, the call now becomes protestable.

Two from the time of the throw is perfect. So good, I believe MLB (and everyone no picked it up after softball started using it.

No question about who is throwing when or where. No question about whether the outfielder was actually in the infield or an infielder throwing from the outfield.

Is it difficult to see? Sometimes, but I don't believe it is that difficult that you change the rule.

MLB still awards from TOP when the first play by an infielder goes into DBT, unless at the time of the throw all runners, including the BR, had advanced at least one base.

In my experience, differentiating between TOP and TOT in baseball and FP softball often makes a difference. A runner stealing 2B may well have reached 2B by the time F6 fields a grounder and throws wild to 1B. In baseball, though the runner had reached 2B at the time of the throw, he is awarded 3B only. In softball, with no "first play" clause, the award would be home.

I've seen a similar play occur in SP, but rarely (usually when the BR hits a grounder and doesn't run hard, not uncommon in slugger leagues). In the play that started this thread, if F1 still had a play at 3B, it is unlikely that the runner from 1B had reached 2B at TOT.

You are correct, obviously. The thing here is that if any base, bat and ball game should have enough eyes to determine the location of the runner on an OT, it would be MLB.

My reference was more to the two base award as opposed to the one & one, or the old one from the IF, two from the OF types of award. After rereading the thread, I can understand where I may have caused any confusion.

I do not agree that the original poster should have changed the original call.

A runner is considered to have touched a missed base unless properly appealed by the defense. The defense made an appeal, but no umpire saw the base missed, and you can't guess an out.

The offense had a protestable situation that would have been upheld.

The original call was correct.

Tony,

What missed base?

Nevermind, my bad.

Thanks - I guess what made the call seem more difficult was the time it took the ball to go out of play. By then R2 had already rounded 3rd and BR was almost to 3rd. It seemed I was penalizing the offense and rewarding the defense for the ball going out of play.

Steve,
The NSA book still contains the "initial throw by an infielder" phrase so that's what I was going by, not OBR.

Travis,
You award bases based on the time of the throw, not the time the ball went out of play. I still say R1 gets home, R2 gets third and BR gets 2nd.

<b>one plus one</b>

This phrase has been around as long as I can remember (back to the 1950s). About 25 years ago, I wrote to "Ask Hal, the Referee" at the <i>Sporting News</i> to ask its origin. He responded in his column that he had long heard umpires use the term, but since it was nowhere in the rules, it must have been something that was simply picked up and then repeated enough that players and umpires assumed it was some sort of official term. "Hal" went on to remind his readers that "one plus one equals two."

It is "one plus one" that makes people think a runner gets the base he is <i>returning to</i> plus one. As I remember, some softball codes did use such a rule in the past.

<b>the old "one from the IF, two from the OF" types of award</b>

I still hear people say this, including announcers. Does anyone know where it came from? I wonder whether it was in somebody's code long ago.

In the pregame of a recent FP tournament, my new partner reminded the coaches that it was "one base from the mound, two from the field." Neither coach asked what he was talking about, but I made a mental note to make sure to watch whether the pitcher stepped off the rubber before attempting a pickoff.

Wait another minute, I am not done questioning the call...;-)

Did you take the defensive coach's word that R2 had not yet reached 2B?

What did you explain to the offensive coach?

The answer should have been to the defensive coach..."Coach, in my judgement R2 had touched 2B"...and let the original call stand.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tcannizzo
[B]I AGREE. I WOULD HAVE STUCK WITH MY ORIGINAL CALL. WITH A ONE MAN SYSTEM, YOU HAVE TO GO ALOT WITH JUDGEMENT...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiquita
[B]I thought about it for a minute, but would have had a hard time saying R2 reached 2nd by the time of the throw when R1 had not reached 3rd. R1 was definitely faster than R2, but BR was a real burner and was probably on 1st before throw. If I would have awarded BR 2 bases and R2 2 bases they would have both been on 3rd. That was another thing that bothered me. If the ball would not have gone out of play; R1, R2, and BR would have all probably scored.

<b>I thought about it for a minute, but would have had a hard time saying R2 reached 2nd by the time of the throw when R1 had not reached 3rd.</b>

Apparently the play you described was straightforward, with the runners and the BR off with the hit. Nobody pausing, tripping, loafing, or going the wrong way. If F1 had a play at 3B, it is unlikely that the runner from 1B had reached 2B at the time of the throw.

<b>R1 was definitely faster than R2 . . .</b>

More evidence that R2 had not reached 2B by TOT.

<b>but BR was a real burner and was probably on 1st before throw.</b>

This is irrelevant to placing R1 and R2.

<b>If I would have awarded BR 2 bases and R2 2 bases they would have both been on 3rd.</b>

If two runners are between 1B and 2B at TOT, you award the preceding runner 3B and the following runner 2B.

<b>That was another thing that bothered me. If the ball would not have gone out of play; R1, R2, and BR would have all probably scored.</b>

This is utterly irrelevant. Even if a runner scores before the ball goes out of play, he still gets 2 bases only. If he had not reached 2B by TOT, you have to send him back to 3B.

I understand, this is just one of the odd cases where the defense was actually helped by the ball going out of play.

Not odd, almost every dead ball limits the advance of runners. That is why there is a penalty for deliberate catch and carry which exceeds accidental.