Who is in 1st ???

slowballbaker · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 01:52pm

Need help on this one....

You have a team #1 that has 7 wins 2 loses 2 ties: 7-2-2
And another team #2that has 7 wins 3 loses: 7-3

Who is in 1st place by record only at this moment???

Then team 2 plays their final game and wins...

Team #1 7-2-2
Team #2 8-3

Who is in 1st place in both cases and WHY???
Thanks

orioles35 · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:21pm

My guess: In the first case, the 7-2-2 team is in first as they have fewer losses. In the second case, the 8-3 team is in first place as they have more wins.

GaryBarrentine · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:24pm

In the first example:
Team #1 7-2-2, 7/11 = .636 win percentage
Team #2 7-3, 7/10 = .700 win percentage

Team #2 is in first place.

In the second example
Team #1 7-2-2, 7/11 = .636 win percentage
Team #2 8-3, 8/11 = .727 win percentage

Team #2 is in first place again.

GaryB

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by slowballbaker
Need help on this one....

You have a team #1 that has 7 wins 2 loses 2 ties: 7-2-2
And another team #2that has 7 wins 3 loses: 7-3

Who is in 1st place by record only at this moment???

Then team 2 plays their final game and wins...

Team #1 7-2-2
Team #2 8-3

Who is in 1st place in both cases and WHY???
Thanks

Not to be a smartass...well, okay a little bit of a smartass, but why would an umpire care?

GaryBarrentine · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not to be a smartass...well, okay a little bit of a smartass, but why would an umpire care?

Do not know if an umpire would care, just answering the question at hand.

GaryB

slowballbaker · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:37pm

About like an umpire not to care!!!!
Yes, you are correct...You are a smartass....

mcrowder · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:39pm

But you're not. You're guessing. A tie is half a win (and half a loss. By your logic, a tie and a loss affect you exactly the same, and a team that was 7-6-0 and a team that was 7-0-6 would have the same pct. That's wrong.

7-2-2 is .727, 7-3 is .700, and 8-3 is .727. In the 1st scenario, team 1 is temporarily in first place. If team 2 wins their final game, the teams are tied. (As to what the tiebreaker is/should be --- that will differ by league, but the best way would be to settle it on the field).

mcrowder · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:41pm

Um, slowball... that was uncalled for. You came to an umpiring board and asked a general sports-related, but not umpire-related question. After seeing your response to IM, I regret answering your question... but I will leave it there for you anyway.

tzme415 · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:42pm

I agree that an umpire would not care, but this all depends on how the leagues decides to handle ties.

1) Act like they never happened
Team 1 7-2-2 = .778
Team 2 7-3 = .700

Team 1 7-2-2 = .778
Team 2 8-3 = .727

2) Count them as 1/2 W and 1/2 Loss
Team 1 7-2-2 = .727
Team 2 7-3 = .700

Team 1 7-2-2 = .727
Team 2 8-3 = .727

3) Count them as games, but neither win nor loss
Team 1 7-2-2 = .636
Team 2 7-3 = .700

Team 1 7-2-2 = .636
Team 2 8-3 = .727

The most common method is #2 or a point system with 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie. Usually the team with the most wins wins the tie breaker.

bluezebra · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:48pm

"A tie is half a win (and half a loss."

ONLY if the league has set that criteria to determine standings.

Bob

GaryBarrentine · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 02:57pm

Quote:

You're guessing.

Actually, you are assuming that your rules are the correct rules, but rules do vary.

Quote:

By your logic, a tie and a loss affect you exactly the same, and a team that was 7-6-0 and a team that was 7-0-6 would have the same pct.

You are correct I am conculding a tie is a loss, because it is not a win.

Quote:

That's wrong.

That would depend on how your organization defines a tie.

GaryB

mcrowder · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 03:36pm

I'll admit that it's possible some local league somewhere has bizarro rules in place to handle ties.

However, from 20 years of working in numerous sports, I've never run across any league in any sport that would rank a 7-6-0 team equally with a 7-0-6 team.

Every league I've ever been involved with has either calculated winning percentage by considering a tie equal to 1/2 win (that covers about 95%), or an NHL-style points system (2pts for a win, 1 for a tie --- which is actually identical in result to the first method --- or 3 pts for a win, 1 for a tie).

If you consider professional leagues, NCAA conferences, NAIA districts, etc - ALL of them, with NHL/IHL hockey being an exception, consider a tie equal to half a win. (IE - these are not MY rules, as you state. These are very standard, and very consistently used rules)

If that's not good enough to answer the original poster's question, then I suppose nothing will be.

Dutch Alex · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 05:40pm

I guess I'm missing something:

In the Netherlands (ESF/ISF-rules) we will have:

Team 1: 7-2-2; thats 11 played games and 16pts
Team 2: 7-0-3; thats 10 played games and 14pts

Therefor team 2 HAS to play another game!

In the Netherlands team 1 has the 1st place. But Team 2 has to play another game. If they win, both be on 16 points. Team 2 will be on 1st place. By one more win.
If they lose or tie: 2nd place for team 2, they can't get 16 points...

(we give 2 points for a win, 1 for a tie.)

U of M Sam · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 01, 2005, 08:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by slowballbaker
About like an umpire not to care!!!!
Yes, you are correct...You are a smartass....

It seems as though your question of who is in 1st place was generally answered...........
although, who cares who is a smarta**?
As this is an umpire board / the question remains: Why would an umpire care about the win/loss record of any team?

debeau · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 02, 2005, 02:55am

I get assigned games .
I dont know at a tournament who is top or bottom or how many wins or losses .
I do see many umpires with their books calculating all this an knows which teams are headed for a final .
I dont care , I go out and umpire every game as to the best of my ability and often have to be told that it is a mercy game or 7 innings are up or it is a tie breaker .
How can you have a tied game , we never do , we have to get a result .