I was PU, BU was a relatively new ump. He has been umpiring 4-5 years but due to work schedule has called very few games over that time span...anyways.

Batter gets hit to gap in right center. F3 is standing on white portion of bag as BR rounds the bag going to the colored portion on her way to 2B. I see this and call obstruction. The throw into 2B was high. If the throw had been good it would have been a very close play. To continue the play, F6 jumps for the ball and lands on the BR. They were tangled up for a few seconds. The ball rolls to the 3rd base foul line about 20' up the line past 3B where F9 is backing up and picks up ball. Base coach looks at me and request time. He says he wants to talk to my partner and mentioned to me "you know what I want to talk about". Yah coach I do. After talking to my partner, my partner comes to see me about the obstruction at 2B with the fielder on top of the runner. I ask if he thought the BR would have made it to 3B had there not been obstruction. He said no. I told then there is your explaination to the coach. Just for the heck of it I asked him if he saw the obstruction at 1B and he answered no.

My question around this is a what if....
What if the runner would have been thrown out at 2B and my partner called her out. Exactly how would you have handled this? I would have immediately called dead ball and protected the runner to second. Just wanted details on how to handle this call. Would you talk to the partner first and ask if he saw the obstruction?

No, the umpire that calls the obstruction makes the award - you in this case.

Two things come up - 1 that I'm inferring from your post (I may be wrong), and 1 that came up here a couple of months ago.

1) When you saw the OBS, did you decide right then and there to protect to 2nd base? Or did you wait for the play to develop.

2) The issue of multiple obstructions was met with a very divided opinion here a couple of months ago. You don't mention it in the post, but there may be the question of - if there had been no OBS at first, then would the runner have been far enough along that she's have made third on the 2nd OBS. Based on the sequence of events you've posted, I'd have to say no in this case, as the play at 2nd may have been completely different without the OBS at first base (she may have come in standing up with no chance of being out - and the ball may not have gotten away).

I'm not even sure if there was OBS at 1B. HTBT, but:

You mentioned that the BR used the orange. I have seen many BRs use the orange portion for the same purpose without a defensive player standing on the white portion.

You also did not indicate that the BR altered her direction or slowed down due to the defensive player standing on 1B.

If BR is clearly rounding 1B to go to 2B or at least take a look at 2B, I am going to have my arm out for OBS at 1B. F3 setting up on the white with no play is causing the BR to take one or two extra steps to go around her; that is the "altered path".

If the BR is simply running thru 1B and hits the orange, then no OBS even if F3 is blocking the inside part of the white. BR did not alter her path; therefore no OBS.


[Edited by UmpireErnie on May 25th, 2005 at 12:08 PM]

I would assume that is exactly what the BU saw or he would not have ruled obstruction.

As far as an umpire's action when the partner doesn't see the OBS is relatively simple. The partner was only doing what s/he was supposed to do, call the play.

The PU should immediately kill the ball, verify the location of any other runners. At this point, announce the OBS and any award which may apply.

Thanks Mike,

That is what I thought. As the PU, kill the play. Just wanted to make sure of the exact mechanics of the call.

No doubt in my mind that the BR rounded 1B wide (used orange) due to the fact that F3 was standing on white portion of 1B. I'll call obstruction on that everytime under these circumstances.

In my opinion this was in appropriate. Whether your partner saw the play and judge it not to be obstruction or whether he did not see the play, it was his call. I think it is great that you are in a position to assist if he requests.

SC UMP

You will not call obstruction on a runner if you see it unless your partner ask for help?

I will not call it if it is not my call. If I am PU and there is what I think is obstruction at first, I will expect the BU to rule on it. I would hate to see a play and rule obstruction from my position as PU, when the BU, seeing it from the most advantageous position saw the play and considered the act to not be obstruction.

If a coach comes out and questions a call with my partner, and if the BU was unsure enough of his vantage point that he wishes to hear my opinion, I'm sure he will ask.

What do you do if you are the BU and you see the play perfectly and judge it to not be obstruction, but you then hear your partner yell, "Obstruction!" Are you suppose to turn around and yell, "It's my call and no it's not!"

You call it as you see it .
As a PU with no runners on I am trailing the BR to watch for obs or interference at 1st.
As a PU how do I know my BU even has eyes open .
You see different things from different angles .
I would put this in the same as a batter hit by a batted ball in the box .Whos call is it .
Any umpires that sees it .
Call it as you see it .

The same as a player leaving early on pitch. Whatever umpire sees it, calls it.
Naturally for PU the call at 2B is easiest. Everything is right in front of them.

Actually I think the mechanic manuals state that the PU trails "to see what is happening and be of assistance to his partner if help is requested." [Quoted from NFHS, but perhaps other organizations give PU the right to overrule. Are pulled foots called right away, or do PUs wait for requested assistance?]

As for part about having "eyes open"... I think that is a cop out. That's the same excuse I hear from coach's about why they think it is okay to complain about balls and strike from the bench.

The difference between this and the ball hitting the batter is that umpiring mechanic manuals teach that this should be called by any umpire because of the inherent disadvantageous position that the PU is in while set to call balls and strikes. A ball hitting the batter is difficult to see by the PU because there is a catcher and batter both standing in between the PU and the ball.

Dan,

With all due respect, stay in HS ball. This comment is so far off base for other assns (ASA in my case), you may not even be in the same ball park.

Umpires on the field have a shared responsibility to call any rule violation they observe. It is not a matter of judgment, but an application of the rule. I don't care if you are 10' from the play or 80' from the play, if you see a violation, you make the call. I'm not talking about "guessing" because the runner may or could have done, but something with which there is no doubt.

There is not very much that is as pretty as three umpires all throwing that left arm out simultaneously when obstruction is seen. And, yes, I've seen it happen working the plate at a major national on a play at 1B.

In a lot of sitches, the BR touching 1st can be PU's call anyway. And often the angle you would take as BU expecting a play at 2nd will take you away from the angle you'd need to see if F3 actually hindered BR (you might see F3 in an inappropriate place - but not see whether BR was hindered or not).

I take offense at your condescending attitude and your belittling of NFHS ball. I have no problem with you disagreeing with my position, but your holier than thou point of view towards NFHS ball exemplifies your narrow views.

As for my position, I have no problems with the fact that my opinion is very much different than many fine umpires. Good NFHS ones, good NSA ones, good U-TRIP ones and good ASA ones.

It's sweet that you see it as pretty when three umpires are throwing that left arm out simultaneously. If that's the ASA goal, perhaps all three umpires should follow a solo batter runner around the bases and do simultaneous safe and out calls when necessary. Oh my, I bet that would really be pretty.

However, I think problems would arise when the umpires saw it differently and this is my point. If I am on the bases and see a play as not obstruction, or not interference, and if my partner were to call it when it is not his call, I am sure I would disagree with him on the spot. I would not be executing my duties properly if I did less.

Take offense all you please, my comment was not condescending. I simply suggested you stay with the game with which you are familiar. I know the organizations with which I am associated want their umpires to call an entire game, not just the corner for which they are responsible.

Any problems I have with NFHS do not involve the umpires. Rules maybe, but not the umpires. BTW, familiar or not, I believe you are wrong. This isn't a judgment call, it is a rules violation and all umpires on a field have equal responsibility in observing, recognizing and calling them.

Quote:

As for my position, I have no problems with the fact that my opinion is very much different than many fine umpires. Good NFHS ones, good NSA ones, good U-TRIP ones and good ASA ones. It's sweet that you see it as pretty when three umpires are throwing that left arm out simultaneously. If that's the ASA goal, perhaps all three umpires should follow a solo batter runner around the bases and do simultaneous safe and out calls when necessary. Oh my, I bet that would really be pretty.

Now who is being condescending? I don't know an ASA Championship Play level umpire who is not proud of the training provided. Many go out of their way to get all the training they can. Because of that training, many an ASA umpire can walk onto the field with two or three other umpires with whom they have never worked, have a short, if any, pre-game meeting and work the game as a team. The best part is that point will be completely transparent to the teams and spectators.

Quote:

However, I think problems would arise when the umpires saw it differently and this is my point. If I am on the bases and see a play as not obstruction, or not interference, and if my partner were to call it when it is not his call, I am sure I would disagree with him on the spot. I would not be executing my duties properly if I did less.

And your partner would not be executing his/her duties if s/he chose to ignore a violation that you failed to see. If the mechanics are executed properly, each umpire will see the play from a different angle. Hence, what you didn't see as OBS, it may very well have been from your partner's view.

The purpose of multiple umpires is to cover more of the field with more eyes, not to section off portions and assign them to a particular umpires so they won't have to cover as much territory.

SC - he was not being condescending. He was merely stating that the comments you made regarding HS ball were so far off base from ASA mechanics that you should probably not be advising ASA umpires at all. Honestly, I think your comments were off-base for HS ball too. You are treating the game like a football game. This is MY area, not yours, so don't make any calls in MY area. Hogwash. Safe/Out is one thing - one umpire IS responsible for that call, depending on the situation. But OBS, INT, and several other rules are not supposed to be called that way.

In lining yourself up for the optimal call on a possible close play at one base, you take yourself out of the most optimal position for events that occur at other bases. This is where your partner is EXPECTED to pitch in, when possible. If BU is ready for a close play at 2nd, he CERTAINLY doesn't have the best angle on OBS or possibly even INT near first base. This is true at ANY level ball, and for either baseball or softball, and for either 2 or 3 man mechanics.

THIS IS NOT FOOTBALL. Work together, not separately.

PS - if you're going to tell someone not to condescend, at least have the decency to not condescend in that very same post.

I would wait as the PU to see if my partner was calling the obs.The fact that there was obstruction may not warrant you as the PU to make a call(depending on the call).A runner being called out and being obstructed warrants a reversal by the umpiring crew.It's ALL our jobs to make the game fair for both sides.Let's be honest we all have missed a call or play but not to allow your partner to call a outright obstruction call because you didn't see it is plain wrong in my opinion.

IM,
I kind of resented the "stay in HS ball" comment when I first read it, even though I also disagreed with SC, but afterward I realized it wasn't a put down and that your follow-up is more the case:

"the organizations with which I am associated want their umpires to call an entire game, not just the corner for which they are responsible.

Any problems I have with NFHS do not involve the umpires. Rules maybe, but not the umpires. "