I was watching my daughters games today in a high school tournament and two unusual plays occurred.

Play #1: International Tie Breaker. R1 & R2. Two outs. Catcher picks off R1 to end the inning. WHO is the runner at 2nd to begin the next inning for this team?

Play #2: R2, 1 out. Shot hit out to left field. R2 is off on contact, assuming it will drop. F7 makes a great catch. R2 was obstructed by F6 during her initial advance. R2 is rounding 3rd when the ball is caught and the return throw easily doubles her up. The umpires called her out claiming, "She would've been out anyway." Really?

Comments?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

#1, The last person scheduled to bat in next inning. (assuming your state has not adopted some other form of ITB)


#2 Dumb call.

So the batter who was at-bat when the pickoff occurred, <i>misses</i> her turn to bat and is placed at 2nd in the next inning?



Agreed.

David Emerling
Memphis, Tn

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Emerling

Quote:

So the batter who was at-bat when the pickoff occurred, <i>misses</i> her turn to bat and is placed at 2nd in the next inning?

No. She should be the first batter in the next inning. As JEL said, the runner placed on second would be the person scheduled to bat last in the next inning.

Play # 1: The player who made the last out in the batting order prior to the player who was at bat when the pick off happened.

Play # 2: Dumb explanation of his call,but I would still have an out at second.I would protect R2 between second and third base,but once she achieved third and rounded it,I would no longer protect her all the way back to second.If she stopped before reaching third and was thrown out going back to second base,I would enforce the obstruction and put her on second base.

Jeff
NCAA Umpire
NFHS Umpire
ASA Umpire

My understanding is that this is the commonly referred to mis-wording of this rule that confuses so many people. It is not the "last out" but rather the last person scheduled to bat in the inning. Example, number 5 batter leading off? Then number 4 batter goes to second.

Well, I will stay with the #1 answer, but gotta flip flop on #2. The fact the runner reached 3B has no bearing.

I was reasoning that the obstructed runner could in no circumstances "be called out between the bases where obstructed". Per ASA POE 36 the runner could be called out for leaving early if properly appealed. Fed probably is the same....still searching

Wasn't a dumb call after all. Call was right, reasoning was wrong!

This is one of the exceptions that a runner may be called out after being obstructed. It applies to both Federation rules and ASA rules. Federation 8-4-3b Exceptions, ASA 8-5-B Exceptions.

David,
Just to reword the previous answers to # 1 a bit - he runner who starts on 2nd base will be the player that is scheduled to bat 9th in that half inning.

As for #2, keep in mind that in softball, the intent of the rule is to remove the effect of the obstruction - not to enforce a penalty (other than losing the out).

The runner placed on 2nd in the next offensive inning for this team will be the PLAYER who immediately precedes the batter who was in the box at the time of the pick-off

Quote:

Play #2: R2, 1 out. Shot hit out to left field. R2 is off on contact, assuming it will drop. F7 makes a great catch. R2 was obstructed by F6 during her initial advance. R2 is rounding 3rd when the ball is caught and the return throw easily doubles her up. The umpires called her out claiming, "She would've been out anyway." Really?

On what base did R2 begin this play? Nevermind, doesn't make any difference. The call is correct. If anything, the obstruction would have benefitted the runner, not hurt her.

BTW, I don't think most umpires would consider these unusual plays.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Mar 27th, 2005 at 09:35 AM]

When I use the term R2 - I mean it to imply "runner on 2nd."

I never could understand the FED convention for naming runners.

In FED you have to say, "R1 is on 3rd and R2 is on 1st" when it is so much clearer to say "R1 and R3 ..." Plus, you get a better picture of <i>where</i> each runner started which is often helpful in complex situations.

I agree that situation #1 is not difficult ... just unusual.

There does not seem to be a consensus in this forum as to the proper solution for #2, however. So, it might be more difficult (or unusual) than you give it credit for.

It begs the question: Can an obstructed runner be put out <i>between</i> the bases where she was obstructed?

Is the answer a categorical "No!" -or- "No, <i>unless</i> she missed a base or left a base early."?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

"It begs the question: Can an obstructed runner be put out between the bases where she was obstructed?

Is the answer a categorical "No!" -or- "No, unless she missed a base or left a base early."?

Do you have any books David? Both ASA and NFHS have FIVE exceptions to the "cannot be put out between bases" rule.

a - reached base she would have been awarded; then after a subsequent play on a different runner, she is put out trying to advance.

b - properly appealed for missing a base

c - propperly appealed for leaving early

d - committing a act of interference

f - passing another runner.

WMB

Well then, that would answer the question then - wouldn't it! [g]

You have to admit, the plays <i>are</i> somewhat unusual. You will go many games before having to address either of these issues. This is where knowing the rules is very helpful ... kind of like batting-out-of-order situations. The rules are clear, the chance to "practice" implementing those rules are rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

What happened to e?????

Obstruction occurred between d & f, thus e was protected
until dead ball called. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Misceyes.gif

It is not the FED convention. It is the sofball convention. When you post a situation on the softball board it is helps understanding to use the proper terminology. It ain't that hard, and in ain't complicated or difficult to understand. If you can understand OBR, remembering that R1 is the runner closest to home (i.e. the first runner on base) won't tax your mental faculties.

Well I have to agree with Mr. Emerling. I think the softball nomenclature for base runners is backwards. Why can't it be R1 on first, etc? R3 is on third, third is closest to home - what can be more simpler!

Yeah, like in baseball they all go R1, R2 and stuff and like you dudes all go R1 on 3rd and stuff, and like, dude!

Here's the deal - I didn't invent the nomenclature for softball... it is what it is. It helps clarity and reduces misunderstanding to use the nomenclature of the sport.

R1, R2, R3 ... between baseball and softball, the runners are in opposite orders. If you are describing a play situation, it helps if those reading the description are actually placing the runners on the bases you intend with your setup.

Here's one: R1, R2, and R3. BR hits a triple. R1 misses home plate, the other runners step on home. R1 has not entered the dugout. Can R1 return to retouch?

Kinda makes a difference which order they were in, doesn't it?

Dakota,

I didn't mean to imply that you defined the R1-3 nomenclature; I just mean that to me its backwards. Every time I see R1 my first thought is runner on first. I have to force my mind (as feeble as it is) to correct that misconception.

Your example certianly will have a different result if R1 is on first or third, however, if R1 is always on first then the correct ruling will be made.

I suppose its barking at the moon to "complain" about this R1, R3 thing; JMHO its backwards but I'll live with it.

Simpler? See post above. As far as I'm concerned, it's baseball that's backward, but I'll live with it and use it if I engage in communicating on a baseball board. This is not a baseball board, so why is this conversation taking place?

It's not a baseball vs softball "thing." FED <i>baseball</i> uses the same convention as softball. It's a <i>FED</i> thing!

Do any of you play chess? As long as we understand <i>which</i> notation is intended - does it really matter.

What's the difference between the move e4 or P-K4? Most chessplayers can easily make the adjustment. Umpires should also be able to make that adjustment.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

ASA uses the same. It's the softball nomenclature. If Fed baseball picked it up, too, well, that was their choice.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/...eadscratch.gif

On this board, we use the softball nomenclature. You'd be more easily understood if you made the adjustment.

On the rare occasions I post on baseball boards, I make the adjustment and use their nomenclature. Seems the sensible thing to do if I want to be understood.

If I can speak French fluently, yet insist on speaking English in Paris with the view that most school kids in France are taught English so they should make the adjustment to me, how do I appear? Arrogant? Self-centered? Boorish? Ignorant? American? All of the above?

So back to the original question, Part #2....The runner is OUT, because she left early the Obstruction has no bearing unless she was obstructed from returning to the base. In this case she was not -- Not a Dumb Call, just a dumb explanation.