Bases loaded, tie score, bottom of 7th, two outs. Batter is walked.

The rulebooks say that a run counts if it is scored before the 3rd out (with the obvious exceptions).

The assumption is that R1 is awarded home instantly and the game is over when all runners touch the next base. But I cannot find any rules that would justify that interpretation.

The question is: "can something happen that becomes the third out prior to R1 reaching home and thus nulify the winning run?"

Would it make a difference if this happened in the 3rd inning? Suppose R2 runs past 3rd base and is picked off by F2 before R1 touched home? Does the run count - and the inning end.

Rule reference or interpretation, please.

WMB

There's a reason the books says the run must be scored before the 3rd out. The sitch you describe is exactly what comes to mind that might not score the run.

Others mostly include a runner NOT touching his awarded base, or being DQ'd (say the batter that drew the walk had BOO).

Try ASA:

8.1.C, 8.7.G and 5.5.B

In baseball as long as R3 touches home and the BR touches 1st base the run would score even if another runner is put out (e.g. overrunning his base and being tagged out) before R3 touches home (J/R).

In the absence of a different official ruling or case play I'd score the run.

That may be a common assumption, and one that is true 99% of the time, but it is not absolutely true.

Runners who are awarded bases must still run the bases legally (e.g. discussion on the NFHS board regarding a running lane violation in this same situation) and in the case of a BOB, the ball remains live (fastpitch).

ASA Rule 5-3-A (Regulation Game) says, in part, ASA Rule 5-5-B and C gives various situations in which the run will NOT score, including (5-5-B-2)So, in your scenario of R2 rounding 3rd and being tagged out before R1 touches home, that is out #3 before the lead runner touches home, so no run scores.

In the original scenerio, how lenient would you be about high 5s down the base-line before the run scores?

"Runners who are awarded bases must still run the bases legally"

That is a given, Dakota. My original statement is that all runners touch the next base.

The question applies when all runners advance to the next base at different speeds. If it is the 7th inning, they simply touch and base and leave (to join the celebration). If R1 is in the midst of the celebration and yet a couple feet from home - and if another runner is tagged off the base - do you not allow the run?

WMB

Never had it happen, but, no, the rules don't support it. I thought I answered that.

The comment about running legally was just to dispense with that issue; the rest of the post actually was the answer to your question.

We are talking softball here. Obviously a different game with different rules.

Speaking ASA.

There is no rule forbiding it.

<b>In baseball as long as R3 touches home and the BR touches 1st base the run would score even if another runner is put out (e.g. overrunning his base and being tagged out) before R3 touches home (J/R).</b>

True, but be careful. There's a difference in OBR depending on whether the third out is made by a runner who is <i>put out</i> (run scores) or <i>declared out,</i> such as for passing a runner (run does not score). (I have no idea how Fed rules.)

See baseball board Feb 27 thread entitled "Dead ball passing runners, runs scoring."

Now you are going to have to define the game you are playing.

BOB - BL
 

WMB -

Try Rule 8-5-A. [page 108] None of the runners are liable to be put out absent misconduct. All runners in this sitch are "entitled to advance without liability to be put out..."

Therefore it would only be by USC or some such that would negate the run.

TJ

Seems like I remember something about assistance(like a base coach). Thats why I was asking about lenience. We discussed it at our meeting, but it was left to dicretion.

Re: BOB - BL
 

But, no runner is being put out while advancing to the awarded base. The Q is about scoring the run if another runner is put out. Note this in the rule you cite, The ball is in play. R2 advances farther. R2 is at risk. R2 is tagged out for the third out. R1 has not yet crossed home.

Does the run score anyway?

Mike: "Now you are going to have to define the game you are playing"

ASA or NFHS FP Softball.

MA SB UMP: "All runners in this sitch are "entitled to advance without liability to be put out..."

Only to the base they were forced to by a walked batter. In my situation runners reach that base - and then go past the base - and are put out before the first runner touches home.

The question: "Is an awarded run scored instantly? Or can it be negated by rules that normally apply to runners that must earn their way home?"

WMB

Re: Re: BOB - BL
 

Not sure how many times this has to be answered. No, the run does not score.

Re: Re: Re: BOB - BL
 

Apparently as many times as it keeps being asked. My Q that you quote was not because I was unsure; it was intended as a rhetorical back to MA Softball Ump who cited a rule & said that, yes, the run would score (at least that is what I understood him to be saying). Note my first answer in this thread.

Fair enough.

:)

Lets reach a little. Take the bases loaded situation and the batter walks. Say the runners are off with the pitch and it is ball four. R1 at third did not run, R2 did and over runs 3rd and is tagged out. Is R1 in jeopardy to be put out now that the force is removed by R2 being tagged out? Hmmm?

23,

Not if you are using the originally posted situation. There were already
two outs. :)

I'm just adding a wrinkle to the situation by saying there is only one out, is the runner from third in jeopardy to be put out?

I had a hard time finding these answers in a case book and had to go back to one from the early 90's to reference any situation and the answer might surprise some of you out there.

No,not from the original scenerio.
Why would it matter how many outs there are? That would only matter as to whether the game is over.
Referencing the 90's, you got way too much time on your hands. Dont leae us hangin though, tell us what it says.

"Why would it matter how many outs there are? "

Actually it is a good question. If the force is off, is R1 still entitled to free passage home? Or can R1 be tagged out walking to home plate?

WMB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WestMichBlue
[B]Mike: "Now you are going to have to define the game you are playing"

ASA or NFHS FP Softball.

MA SB UMP: "All runners in this sitch are "entitled to advance without liability to be put out..."
It seems to me the most important part of that rule here would be "Any runner affected is entitled to one base and may advance at their own risk". Once they pass the base they can be put out.

Sorry .... I kinda messed up the quote. I think you can figure it out. Brian

Answer is,

In the original scenerio, according to the only case book which references the situation, the run would still count. It is from the 92 baseball case book, when cross referencing the wording in the rule books the wording reads basicaly the same. The key word is ENTITLED, that means guaranteed regardless of what happens. AT the time of the pitch sets the stage and at the time of the pitch bases were loaded so every one is entitled to the next base. The ball does remain live and the 3rd out was made but not until after the pitch had occured. If the runner fails to touch home you may however get a fourth out on appeal.

The second scenerio, no the runner is not liable to be put out because at the time of the pitch the bases were loaded and with ball 4 came the entitlement to home.