Batter gets an infield hit and overruns 1st while, in the meantime, the ball is returned to the pitcher within the circle. As the batter-runner is returning back to first (but before she actually touches the bag) she notices that no middle infielder is covering 2nd. So she darts off for 2nd and catches the pitcher by surprise.

Is this a violation of the Lookback Rule?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

In ASA, yes.

Thanks!

How about under other system of rules, all of which seem to share some version of the Lookback Rule?

NFHS, for instance?

Well, let's put it this way - do you know ANY system of rules where this would NOT be considered a violation?

Here's why I ask.

I just attended a fastpitch softball coaches clinic in Nashville. One of the speakers, JoAnne Graf, the head coach at Florida State, was talking about baserunning. She apparently has a very fast team and she was talking about some of the aggressive maneuvers they do.

One of those moves was exactly what I described. The batter reaches 1st ... overruns ... begins to return to 1st ... notices that nobody is covering 2nd ... and, just before she reaches the bag, she darts of for 2nd, catching the defense by surprise.

She said that this is all legal, and is not a violation even though the pitcher may have the ball within the circle.

I'm not very familiar with NCAA rules - so I just assumed she was correct. But I had my doubts. All us coaches were shooting glances at one another. You could just about read each other's mind, "Is that legal? Hmmm ... I wonder if we could do that in ASA? ... or High School ... or NSA ... or whatever?"

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David,
I'd have to see the exact play in a college game, however, your description is a "circle rule" violation. That's what the NCAA has decided to call the look back rule. There have been other teams that tried the same approach and the first ruling I remember was called the "Washington State" rule - about the B-R returning to 1B and then deciding to take off for 2B.

I can't tell you what NSA's rules & interps say - but it's illegal in Fed ball, illegal in college ball, and illegal in ASA ball.

Well, Dave, that is one of the drawbacks at some clinics. If this wasn't a clinic for college coaches, the speakers shouldn't really be telling non-NCAA coaches about things you cannot apply in your game. The least she should do is qualify the statement as NCAA only to the best of her knowledge.

But that isn't what you coaches were paying to hear. That information is completely useless to the game you are coaching unless you are an NCAA coach.-

JMHO,

This was quite a large clinic. Probably near 500 in attendance. A huge conference room. Lasted for two days.

The coaches in attendance were primarily summer league, competitive teams although there were quite a few high school coaches and only a smattering of college coaches.

I assist with my daughter's 16U team.

The speakers were top names in softball. All nationally known figures.

In general, the lectures were not specific to college, high school or anything else. It tended to be more advanced so I'm not sure that a coach of a 10U team would have gained any knowledge that he could immediately put into practice. It mostly involved general softball strategies and techniques that work at all advanced levels. But, in this one instance, JoAnne got off on a tangent with regards to "aggressive baserunning" and she cited this one example of what some of her runners have done in the past.

Two years ago I attended the same clinic. There was a discussion about how to defend against a batter, who was just walked, from taking off to 2nd while there is already a runner at 3rd. A common offensive tactic.

The lecturer was Jacquie Joseph, the head softball coach for Michigan State University. She recommended that the catcher promptly return the ball back to the pitcher and for the pitcher to remain in the circle. She stated that this "forced" the runner at 3rd to either advance or return or be subject to being called out. I was fairly confident she was incorrect about that - especially with regards to ASA rules.

I raised my hand and suggested to her that R3 could *still* taunt the defense, without penalty, even with the ball in the circle, as long as the BR had not yet reached 1st. She disagreed. She bet me a beer. She lost that bet. In ASA, the provisions of the Lookback Rule do not BEGIN until the batter-runner has reached 1st. So, R3 can do just about anything she wants while the BR is still trotting down to 1st, regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball in the circle.

If there's one thing I've learned, although many of these coaches have brilliant minds for coaching - they are far from rules experts. But I don't find that disappointing since the purpose of the clinic was not to make us all a bunch of umpires. But you can see how many of these "myths" get started.

Although I was confident that Jacquie had that rule wrong, I'm not nearly so confident about whether JoAnne is incorrect about a runner's ability to make a break for 2nd, while returning to 1st on an overrun, while the ball is within the circle.

But, it seems this has been answered by those who are much more knowledgeable about such things than myself. That's why this forum is great!

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jan 23rd, 2005 at 12:00 PM]

I have not started studying my NFHS again this year, but what I remember of it, that it would depend on (1) what you meant by 'begins' and (2) which way she turned. As well as I remember in NFHS, if she turnes toward the foul line, she has committed herself to first and it would be a violation. If she turned toward second (even way out there in right field and initially making no moves toward second) she could then look to see where the ball was and make her decision immediately. If she started moving towards first, then she is committed.

Returning the ball directly to the pitcher in the circle is the best option regardless of level. If the runner on 3B dances around, so what? The pitcher has the shortest distance to throw any runner out than any other defender.

If the catcher throws the ball to 1B on a walk, I'm sending the runner from 3B. After all, they've got a walking start and does not have cover the entire 60'. That runner also has the time the throw is in the air to 1B and then again back to the plate. Not to mention it probably has to be a perfect throw. Secondly, if the throws are perfect, the runner on 3B can still reverse her direction and head back to 3B.

That is a lot of throwing the ball around for what may be absolutely nothing and possibly a run scored and the batter on 2B. Throw the ball back to the pitcher and have F3 & F4 up to the base line.

Again, JMHO,

I agree with you.

We've always taught our catcher to get the ball immediately back to the pitcher in this situation. But we've never done so because we thought we were taking advantage of the "Look Back Rule."

Like you said, regardless, it's still the best defensive move.

I don't want to turn this into a coaching thread - that was not my intent. I just wanted to establish a consensus on the proper rulings.

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Just to make sure everyone is clear on what a B-R can or cannot do on an over-run of 1B WHEN the pitcher has the ball.

ASA or NFHS

1. If she turns Right she must return to 1B

2. If she turns Left and starts towards 2B, she must continue to 2B.

3. If she turns Left and starts towards 1B, she must continue to 1B.

4. If she turns left - and stops - then she has option to go to 2B, or return to 1B.


IF, instead of over-running the base, she rounds 1B then she can stop anywhere between 1B and 2B. Then make a decision and either continue to 2B, or return to 1B.

David E - if your college player followed #4 she would be legal. But it sounds like she is following #3- therefore illegal.

WMB

I seem to recall an opinion posted by WMB awhile ago to the effect that all this complication regarding the lookback rule's interaction with overrunning first base is silly (or at least unnecessary). Not trying to put words in your mouth (or out of your keyboard), WMB, but...

Does anyone have an explanation why the BR who overruns 1st is not merely allowed one stop no matter which way she turns or which direction she runs, like any other runner?

(Good explanation, BTW, WMB).

" is silly (or at least unnecessary"

And my opinion hasn't changed. I call it, and I teach it - but it's still a dumb rule.

One sentence could replace four. Simply interpret the cessation of the forward motion (running towards the RF fence) as the one stop allowed under the LBR. When the runner turns back towards the infield they have had their one stop; now make a decision, and proceed non-stop to 1B or 2B.

Who cares which way the runner turns? When the pitcher does not have the ball, the rulebook is void of any reference to direction of turn when the runner overruns 1B and is protected back to the base. So why in H create directions in the rules just because the pitcher has the ball in the circle. And why have three different rules when the runner turns left? ? ? ?

Silly? Unnecessary? Dumb? Take your pick; all adjectives apply.

WMB

To answer the original question;

Under NCAA rules; as long as the runner returns toward first base within 3 feet of either side of the baseline, they may advance toward second without violating the rules. If the go beyond three feet of the baseline extended in foul territory, they have commited themselves to returning to first base. This is contrary to any other rules codes that I am aware of.

Just another sticky situation that can be avoided by killing the ball once all obvious play is over!! :D

Interesting thread....

The look back rule, while complicated, silly and oft-misinterpretated does help the game move along. Or at least thats what used to happen...

Far many times years ago, games would grind to a halt because runners would dance a couple of yards off of first base in an attempt to get someone to make a play on her. Only to have a pitcher or catcher run directly at them. However, since they couldnt approach too closely, this would often result in a standoff between the runner and pitcher for example.

Ohhhh, what fun!!

Quote:

I raised my hand and suggested to her that R3 could *still* taunt the defense, without penalty, even with the ball in the circle, as long as the BR had not yet reached 1st. She disagreed. She bet me a beer. She lost that bet. In ASA, the provisions of the Lookback Rule do not BEGIN until the batter-runner has reached 1st. So, R3 can do just about anything she wants while the BR is still trotting down to 1st, regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball in the circle.

Dave,
This is accurate this season, but I think we're about to see a change next year. LBR will go into effect as soon as the pitcher has control of the ball within the circle. (ASA)

Mike has a better handle on this and hopefully will elaborate.

Kevin

[Edited by KJ'sDAD on Feb 1st, 2005 at 08:27 AM]

First, the "complicated and silly" parts of the LBR are the 42 different variations of what can happen on a BR who overruns 1B, not about the rule in general.

Second, pardon me while I weep and moan for those poor pitchers who are being taunted by a mean runner on 3B while the BR is advancing to 1B. We need to put a stop to this or some kid might cry. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sp...smiley-034.gif

LBR
 

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/16353

Link to an earlier thread regarding the possible re-wording of the LBR.

Did not take effect in 2005, but may in 2006.

Tom,

I could care less if the pitcher is taunted or not. the point is that the LBR will go into effect for everyone but the BR as soon as the pitcher has control of the ball within the circle. It goes into effect for the BR when she reaches 1st base.

Another earlier thread discussed the situation when the ball is hit back to the pitcher within the circle and when does the LBR go into effect.

I would think that as soon as the pitcher has the ball under control within the circle, it's on. Now with a runner on third, so long as she doesn't make a play on the BR, the R1 must immediately decide whether to advance or retreat.

In 2005 she doesn't have to decide until the BR reaches 1st base.

Again, I don't care one way or the other, but will coach the team based on whatever rule governs the game.

Kevin

[Edited by KJ'sDAD on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 10:10 AM]

I believe LBR was written (and amended, and amended, ...) with the intent of stopping the wasting of time. All of those plays several years ago where the pitcher had the ball, and the baserunner would just stand there several feet off the bag. It wasn't a matter of sportsmanship or of making a pitcher cry. It was simply a matter of wasting time.

I've seen (numerous times), under the current rule, where the batter simply stops 1 step before 1st base, allowing the runner to try to draw a throw when the pitcher has no intention of throwing. WASTE OF TIME. This new amendment puts an end to that.

Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop.

I've never seen it, but that is certainly a compelling argument for the ammendment.

I'm sold.

Kevin

They've got their own brand of wasting time in BB - how much time is wasted by having the pitcher throw to F3 on a pick-off attempt? It's really very similar.

Here is what I was being sarcastic about. Stopping taunting is not and was not the intent of the LBR.

WRT stopping one step short of 1st, I have not seen this, and I don't expect I will see it more than once per team.

Me: "TIME."

O Coach: "Blue, you can't call time during playing action."
Me: "Yes I can. Rule 10-8-A. Now, let's stop wasting time with this nonsense."

I have no big issue with changing the rule BACK to what it was in 2003, but preventing taunting is a PC reason. That is what I was ridiculing.

PC
 

Tom,

I missed your point and I agree 100%. It would be asinine to water down the sport in the name of political correctness.

Reminds me of an editorial I once read regarding face masks on batting helmets.

Kevin

Re: PC
 

;)

But, you realize don't you, you've given me another excuse the plug the site: Softball Umpires.

BTW, based on the discussion on eteamz, the rules committee of the MURSA has met, and have approved several new rules. Check the handouts section. ;)

MC: "Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop."

Do the boys have to go back to the base?


WMB

At most levels, no, they don't. I guess this could be part of the reason it evolved this way (that, and possibly the bigger diamond in most ages). Boys are used to seeing that runner 2 whole frightenting steps off the base, and ignore him. Girls aren't, so needed a rule to force the player back or the pitcher would feel compelled to threaten the runner with that ever-fearsome fake-throw-move to get her to go back.

I still think it's sad we needed a rule.

The problem with this comparison is that you are really comparing apples and oranges. If by the "boys" you mean baseball, then it is hard to compare that to the game of softball. So why even try? Two totally different games. If by the "boys" you mean men's Fastpitch, then guess what, you still have a lookback rule.

While the specific rules bodies differ (LL, Pony, etc.) generally baseball base lines go from 60 to 90 feet above 12U. Softball base lines stay at 60 feet. At 60 feet, a pitcher cannot afford to ignore a runner taking a lead. Seems simple to me.

Originally posted by mcrowder
Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"While the specific rules bodies differ (LL, Pony, etc.) generally baseball base lines go from 60 to 90 feet above 12U. Softball base lines stay at 60 feet. At 60 feet, a pitcher cannot afford to ignore a runner taking a lead. Seems simple to me."
__________________
Tom


You're missing the point, Tom. The BB runner does not have to return to the base after the pitch (as long as the ball is still live). The runner can, and will be off the base at TOP.

The SB runner has to be on the base before the next pitch. We will not allow the pitcher to start the pitching motion until the runner is on the base. Thus SB has the unique LBR, which forces the runners back to the base by rule only. No effort by defensive players is required.

WMB

I know all that... let me try again to say what I was trying to say, plus add to it...

Point 1: Because of the 60 foot base lines (IMO) softball requires the player to start on the base. That is not true in baseball.

Point 2: Since there is no forcing back to the base in baseball for any reason, the comparison is apples and oranges.

Point 3: Since the base lines in softball are so short, the pitcher must take any runner seriously who is taking a lead between pitches, even if that runner is required by rule to return to the base before the pitch. The pitcher is not worried about a steal during the pitch (baseball style), but about a so-called delayed steal.

Point 4: This situation is a direct result of fast players and short base lines.

So, to answer the question, "why does fastpitch need a look-back rule and baseball does not?"

Answer: shorter base lines.

JMO.