I had this play in an ASA game last year. Believe it or not, these were fairly high-level teams.

Abel on 2B, 1 out. Baker hits a deep fly to left-center. Abel mistakenly thinks there are 2 out and runs. As F8 gets a bead on the ball, the 3B coach informs Abel that there is only 1 out. Confused, Abel steps over 3B, takes a few steps toward home, and then, as F8 make the catch, remonstrates with the 3B coach for misleading him about the number of outs.

F8 fires to 2B to get Abel, but the throw is in the dirt, bounces off F4, and rolls to F2. Abel, still assuming he's a dead duck, stands in the baseline and continues complaining to his coach.

However, F2's throw to 2B sails into right center, and with the outfielders having run in, rolls to the fence. Abel now decides it's worth trying to return to 2B. He runs directly to 2B from his position part way down the 3B line. Abel not only makes it back to 2B, but with the defense moving slowly while arguing that Abel committed one violation or another, runs to 3B and stops there.

The defense now tags Abel, while some players appeal that he missed 3B originally and others appeal that he missed 3B on his return. They also claim that Abel ran out of the baseline.

What would you call?

TIME :D

And then nothing unless or until the defense made a single proper appeal. Since Able is now standing on 2nd (I am assuming she was on 2nd at the time of the tag), then the leaving early appeal is gone. The only appeal left is missing 3rd on the return.

Abel is now standing on <b>3B.</b>

ok, i'll take a shot .. you dont have anything since (1) abel never touched 3rd so he dont have to retouch it going back to 2nd and (2) no out of baseline since he wasn't avoiding a tag

<b>abel never touched 3rd so he dont have to retouch it going back to 2nd</b>

Because he passed over 3B, he still has to touch 3B when returning, even though he missed it the first time by.

TIME is exactly what I would call since there are multiple players spouting out numerous appeals and it seems that R1 has decided to stay on a particular base for a while.

There is no ruling for out of the baseline for two reasons: 1) there is no such rule, and 2) the rule that does exist, the runner would have to be avoiding a tag for it to apply.

If the defense properly appeals R1 missing 3B while advancing, or while retreating to 2B, R1 is ruled out.

"If the defense properly appeals R1 missing 3B while advancing, or while retreating to 2B, R1 is ruled out.
__________________
Mike Rowe
ASA Umpire"

Mike,
There is no "last time by" in softball?

I was running over in my mind if I would honor the appeal for missing while retreating, but was not considering honoring an appeal on missing while advancing.

As for the retreating miss, from the disctiption it could be considered a gross miss, and not correctable. If it had been a slight miss, and the runer was now standing on 3rd, I probably wouldn't honor an appeal for that either.

Roger Greene

<i>Roger wrote: If it had been a slight miss, and the runer was now standing on 3rd, I probably wouldn't honor an appeal for that either.</i>

Is that like no harm no foul? Or the light turned red only
seconds before I ran it! :D

That is not only a question, but a true statement.

Quote:

I was running over in my mind if I would honor the appeal for missing while retreating, but was not considering honoring an appeal on missing while advancing. As for the retreating miss, from the disctiption it could be considered a gross miss, and not correctable. If it had been a slight miss, and the runer was now standing on 3rd, I probably wouldn't honor an appeal for that either. Roger Greene

Roger,

You need to get that other game out of your head here. :) There is no allowance for "neighborhood" contact with a base, by either offense or defense.

Speaking ASA, when a runner passes a base they are considered to have touched it (still subject to a missed base appeal) for the purpose of all other rules.

well, once again i learn something new ... or at least have it clarified in my mind ...... thanks

I'll take your word, Mike, that softball does not recognize "last time by" (I can't recall any case plays dealing wiht it in softball, and don't have any references with me today)but that makes the appeal process pretty interesting then.

Given this play with an addition that the runner wasn't standing on 3rd when the play ended, but instead through some other misplay had advanced home to score we are faced with this problem.

The runner who has scored has passed 3rd base 3 times, (1)first time by advancing=miss number 1; (2) second time by retreating=miss number 2; (3)third time by advancing=touch number 1.

Now for the appeal, F5 in possession of the ball touches 3rd base and appeals that the runner missed 3rd.

Do we now:
Ask which time or pick out the time ourslelves?

If we ask which time, at what point do we stop letting F5 guess which time we observed?

If we just honor the appeal without making any distinction on which time by is being appealed, how do we maintian any creditability with the observers and participants who only observed the runner clearly tag 3rd base on her way to score?

I'm not trying to argue that the interpertation of "last time by" is applied to softball, just that by not adopting this interp that the "other game" has, we may be opening up a can of worms that I won't have to deal with when doing those "other games"

Roger Greene

I always thought that ASA <i>did</i> recognize "last time by," though (unlike OBR) it did not differentiate between a regular miss (within a body length, correctable after the fact) and a gross miss (by more than a body length, not correctable).

In OBR, in the play in question, Abel would be called out if the defense appealed that he missed 3B on his return to 2B. By missing 3B by more than a body length, Abel committed a gross error that cannot be corrected after the fact. However, his miss the first time by was corrected "last time by," as he is now standing on 3B.

If there is no "last time by" in softball, then we have to call Abel out on appeal in the following play:

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a liner into right-center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. F9 gets up and fires a long throw toward 1B as Abel begins to retreat. Abel misses 2B on the return. F9's throw to 1B gets away and into DBT as Abel slides back into 1B. Abel is properly awarded, yes, <i><b>home</i></b> by the umpire (3B in OBR). Abel then touches 2B, 3B, and home plate in proper order. The defense then appeals that Abel missed 2B on his return after F9's catch.

If there's no "last time by in ASA," Abel must be called out on appeal. And when did Abel lose the right to correct his mistake? When he touched 1B? Hard to believe.

When you believe that the defense is guessing. If it is apparent that they know they saw a violation and they are just trying to match-up what they saw with what the umpire saw, there is no problem with multiple appeals.

Quote:

If we just honor the appeal without making any distinction on which time by is being appealed, how do we maintian any creditability with the observers and participants who only observed the runner clearly tag 3rd base on her way to score?

I will ask them which runner they are appealing and what they are appealing. If there are multiple passes, I may ask which time. If I believe they know or are simply reruning the play in their mind, I'll allow that. If they just start throwing out numbers, the first one is it. This is one of those things that the umpire will know when they have a clue or are just guessing.

Quote:

I'm not trying to argue that the interpertation of "last time by" is applied to softball, just that by not adopting this interp that the "other game" has, we may be opening up a can of worms that I won't have to deal with when doing those "other games" Roger Greene

I don't see your "can of worms" at all. Either the player runs the bases in a legal order or they don't. Under a "last time by" you can have the following:

(base of play hijacked from greymule)

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a long fly ball into right-center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch and collides with the fence. F9 gets the wind knocked out of him and isn't capable of getting the ball back to the infield. Abel deadheads across the infield and retouches 1B. Seeing F9 still holding the ball, Abel takes off toward 2B and continues to 3B when the weak throw doesn't reach the cut-off F4.

The defense appeals Abel missing 2B when returning to retouch 1B. Based on the "last time by" theory, the umpire must deny the appeal because Abel touched 2B on the way to 3B.

Now, I know what's coming next, "but Blue, he didn't even try! He missed it by a mile!"

Well, that's just tough, isn't it? There is no rule book of which I'm aware that allows a runner to just outright miss the base if he is close enough and still be ruled safe. ASA makes it plain and simple, either you touch the base every time you are supposed to touch it or you don't. Period! If you fail to perform as a runner, YOU placed yourself in jeopardy, not the defense, not your coach, not the umpire, not the fans, but YOU!

"Abel deadheads across the infield and"

That is where the gross miss comes in. Greymule mentioned that. A gross miss cannot be corrected by last time by.

But we digress. This is a baseball discussion on a softball board now. Maybe the interp is there because the field is larger, and the customs are different.

Thanks,
Roger

Now I'm very confused. So in ASA a runner cannot correct a previous miss by touching the base the last time by.

In that case:

1. Abel on 1B. Baker lines to right-center. Abel rounds (touches) 2B and F9 makes the catch. Abel misses 2B on the return but makes it back to 1B as F9's throw gets away. Abel tags 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B on the return to 1B.

No last time by. Out.

2. Same play but Abel misses 2B as he rounds it. On the return he touches 2B. The throw gets away. Abel touches 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the <i>first</i> time by.

It's a missed base. Abel is out on appeal.

After the throw gets away (still in LBT) and Abel has returned to 1B, does he have to run to 2B, correct whatever miss he made the first or second time by, then return to 1B, and then, if he has time, run to 2B again?

Or, once he touches 1B, is it impossible for him to correct his error?


[Edited by greymule on Dec 23rd, 2004 at 10:39 PM]

Correct. Since all bases must be touched in order, to safely return to 1B without jeopardy of being out on appeal, he must actually touch 2B, then 1B. Now, at this point, he is free to advance without compromise.

Quote:

2. Same play but Abel misses 2B as he rounds it. On the return he touches 2B. The throw gets away. Abel touches 1B and runs to 2B. Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the <i>first</i> time by. It's a missed base. Abel is out on appeal. After the throw gets away (still in LBT) and Abel has returned to 1B, does he have to run to 2B, correct whatever miss he made the first or second time by, then return to 1B, and then, if he has time, run to 2B again? Or, once he touches 1B, is it impossible for him to correct his error?

Here is where it CAN get dicey. By rule, the runner can be called out. However, you are now going to get the argument that Abel realized he missed 2B and was returning to touch it and then returned to 1B to retouch. This can be a valid point and is where that "judgment" thing comes into effect on the umpire's behalf. That's why we get the big bucks!

Roger, that's my point. Just what is a "gross miss"? Is it defined as a foot, yard, three yards, etc.?

Judgment, Mike, judgment.

Much like the judgment of inteference or obstruction on a muffed batted ball. There we use the "step and a reach" rule of thumb. Greymule metioned the "body length" rule of thumb above.

Other clinicans use the "I know it when I see it" line. Obviously if the runner is cutting across the corner to shorten his distance that IS a gross miss. If the runner steps over the base, that is usually judged to NOT be a gross miss, therefore it may be corrected by last time by.

It's not rocket science, just common sense and judgment.

Roger Greene

Then if Abel misses 2B on his return to tag up at 1B, at what point is his miss of 2B uncorrectable? Obviously, if he missed 2B on the return, ran halfway back to 1B, and then turned around to run and touch 2B (correcting his miss), <i>then</i> returned to 1B before the ball got there, we would consider him as having corrected his miss.

Is it that once he has touched 1B on the return, he has irrevocably cemented his mistake at 2B?

I'm having a hard time with the logic here. Abel hits a ball off the fence, touches 1B, misses 2B, gets halfway to 3B, and, seeing the throw to 3B, retreats to 2B. While Abel is standing on 2B, the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the first time by. I judge that Abel retreated to 2B not to correct his miss, but solely because he could see that he was going to be out at 3B. I therefore call him out for missing 2B.



[Edited by greymule on Dec 24th, 2004 at 11:49 AM]

Well, stop changing the play, or at least put a runner in for Abel. He's gotta be one tired SOB by now.

Quote:

Abel hits a ball off the fence, touches 1B, misses 2B, gets halfway to 3B, and, seeing the throw to 3B, retreats to 2B. While Abel is standing on 2B, the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the first time by. I judge that Abel retreated to 2B not to correct his miss, but solely because he could see that he was going to be out at 3B. I therefore call him out for missing 2B.

I believe you are really overthinking this one. In the play above the player is returning to a base in route to nowhere. The only way you get this runner out is if there is a live ball appeal at 2B prior to Abel returning.

Forget the gross miss. The only true question is on the close miss.

In Grey's situation 1, I have an out.

In Grey's situation 2, I have safe. Why? Because when a runner rounds a base and misses it, her only way to correct the error is to go back and touch it. In this sitch, when she misses 2nd and immediately returns to 2nd and then 1st, she has in essence done just that. If you do not agree, then do you also call her out if she rounds 2nd and misses it, recognizes her miss, stops, and returns directly to 2nd, ending the play standing there on 2nd?

Obviously not and, IMO, ludicrous to suggest so. Two different scenarios, actions and rulings.

In situation 2, I can't see any call but safe. Even if ASA does not recognize "last time by," the runner touched 2B when returning to 1B. <i>Why</i> she returned—whether she was even aware that she missed 2B the first time around—should not matter.

I still find it hard to believe that there's no "last time by" ASA. Is there a relevant case play?

In any case, though I've always thought of situation 1 as "safe" because of last time by, I can see the reasoning for an out and will in fact call it if it happens. Number 2 seems quite different, since the touch follows the miss.

[Edited by greymule on Dec 29th, 2004 at 07:59 AM]