In a close game (FP), runner on 2B, BU in C position, batter hits a
slow roller towards F4, as BU you start in at an angle that will give
you a good look, be closer to the play than somewhere behind F6. As
you start in, you see PU has gone more up the line towards 1B to observe
pull foot, etc.. You realize that you also have a runner at 2nd base who
is advancing on the play. You also realize that the call at 1B is your
call. You slow down so your position is now close to circle, but not
as close as you would normally be when making a call at 1B. F3 catches
the ball, actually pulling foot prior to receiving the ball. As BU you
indicate safe. F3 anticipating R1's advancement to 3rd, snaps a bullet to
F5. Sliding R1's hand touches bag, then ball touches hand. You as BU
hesitate, (mechanically not your call), hear nothing from PU, yell, "Hand on bag,
Late tag." As you straighten, from your sell "safe"you hear a loud "OUT"
sell call from PU, positioned between HP and 1st base.
"Damn, mess". (thoughts to self). Naturally you now have two coaches approaching.

After discussion with partner, you stay with BU's call. He did have the
position.

How would you handle a play like this?



[Edited by whiskers_ump on Nov 20th, 2004 at 08:57 PM]

You've picked a good example, and I think we all know their are other similar ones. In these type of situations, I will make eye contact with my partner before making a call. If we're both looking at each other, I might point at my partner or take the call myself, depending on the situation.

Mistake #1. BU should have kept his mouth shut. Unless it is obvious that the PU has been physically taken out of the play, the BU should wait for the PU to "give up" the call before doing or saying anything.

Quote:

As you straighten, from your sell "safe"you hear a loud "OUT" sell call from PU, positioned between HP and 1st base.

Mistake #2. PU is only suppose to move down the line 20' at the most, maybe not as much knowing there was a possible play at 3B. PU should have been turned toward 3B, still watching 1B when the ball was received by F3. The FP field is not that big that the PU shouldn't have at least been in the vicinity (for WMB :)) of the circle when the play occured at 3B.

Quote:

"Damn, mess". (thoughts to self). Naturally you now have two coaches approaching. After discussion with partner, you stay with BU's call. He did have the position. How would you handle a play like this?

Not screwed it up to begin?

Mike

You are right. A couple of mistakes were made. I was BU.
I waited for his call, got none and knew we had another
base runner to contend with. Knew he was not in position
make this call, and hoped that he had drifted towards 2B.
When I saw him, I knew he could not have made that call with
ease either. PU admitted he went to far trailing BR and had
forgotten there was a runner at 2B.

I know that communications would have assisted in this play,
but it all happened pretty quickly.

Thanks for input.

I hope that he at least brought the beer!

in this situation isn't that what the holding zone on the third base line is for?
slide up the line don't trail, see the foot don't cheat, release PU play at third?

"in this situation isn't that what the holding zone on the third base line is for?"

No. The PU uses that position when a ball is hit to the outfield and he may have a play at home - or at 3rd. From that "holding position" the PU can slide back if the ball comes to home. If there is no play at home he release that runner, crosses the foul line, and moves into position to make a call at 3B.

When the ball is on the infield, the PU's first priority is the B-R to 1B, then switch to 3B. But, as Mike noted, don't get too close to the line nor too far up the line. Cheat a little towards the center of the field so that you can react to a play at 3B.

WMB

I hope that he at least brought the beer!
__________________
Mike Rowe
ASA Umpire

As a matter of fact, he did. He also brought diner,
at Wille Ray's barbecue.

WMB, John,

PU went way too far up the line. I actually thought that
he might make the call at 1B. He was badly out of position
for the play at 3rd. I did hesitate, made what I saw, then
seconds behind my call, he makes his. When we talked later,
he said he heard my call, but was already committed on his.

WMB I disagree, unfortunately the NCAA manual doesn't go into 2 man mechanics, but the way i see it if you don't trail in 3 man with a runner at second you certainly don't in 2 man...

Sounds like we need a better mechanic for runner at 2nd only, like sensibly switching responsibilities for 1st and 3rd.

CecilOne,

I like that, and use to have a partner that I worked NFHS
with and that is exactly what we did. Single runner was
always BU's, with runner on 2B, PU would take her all the
way until play ended. Worked very well. Never had any
foul ups.

single runner
 

More than a few of us in the Pacific Northwest do exactly that...it's the base umpire's call. But...it all comes down to having a REAL pregame with your partner and talking about plays like this. Who is going to make the call? Discuss it before the game so you don't have situations like that.

With that being said, the PU should not trail that far up the line. I know the closer I get to 50 years old the less far I go up the line...although I will go at least 15-20 feet.

By all means the PU does NOT go to the holding area with a single runner on second and a "routine" ground ball in the infield. This gets me to a pet peeve: I see far too many PUs who often don't go up the first base line. They go to the holding area or, worse, right up the 3B line! ARRRRGGGGHHH

Don't think so. If the umpire's do their job as prescribed, the present mechanic works quite well.

Mike: ”Don't think so. If the umpire's do their job as prescribed, the present mechanic works quite well.”

OK, but what really is the prescribed mechanic for a runner at 2B? I know what you said above, and I’ve always agreed, and I echoed your comment in my response above. But when challenged by jstark23, I went to the ASA umpire’s manual to quote a specific line – and I couldn’t find it!

With a runner at 1B and a ball on the infield, there are a couple references to direct the PU up the 1B line and then move across the field to cover a play at 3B. (PU duties: Leaving the plate area left of catcher . . . and PU under 2-Man Mechanics with runner at 1B.)

However, with runners at 2B (or 3B) the 2-Man duties state that the PU moves toward 3b. Specifically: “Be ready and in position to make a call by going down the left field foul line in foul ground.”

We have always been taught, when there may be a play at 1B, that the PU’s first responsibility are calls prior to the 3’ lane and to support the BU for pulled foot/swipe tags. The 2nd responsibility would be the lead runner into 3B. It seems as though we have taken that “first responsibility” requirement literally to mean that we have to be on the 1B line.

Conversely, I have always believed that when you have a runner in scoring position (2B or 3B) that the PU should never go into the infield (other than crossing over to make a call at 3B).

Thus our “first responsibility” duties will have to be made, as best we humanly can do, from foul territory along the 3B line.

If we get inside the field with runners in scoring position, then we may well have to make a call at the plate – with the throw coming from inside! And that, of course, is bad mechanics.

WMB

I wasn't challenging you WMB, I just didn't happen to agree with your previous post and if you took it as anything more personal than that I apologize greatly for heavens sake those kind of things are better left to those guys on the other stick and ball sport... that being said, I do agree with your last post, there is no way to get back to first base line extended for a play at the plate from a trail position without crossing a throwing lane, the other thing is PU's 1st base responsibility is swipe tag and pulled foot both calls that require a good field of vision so you aren't losing all that much by not trailing... Happy Thanksgiving

"if you took it as anything more personal than that"

Not at all, John. I posted my position; you challenged it; and I went to the book to refute you. But I couldn't. All I ended up doing was agreeing with you.

This is how we get better. We disagree, and we go to the book. Then we learn.

WMB

Now go enjoy that turkey!

Guys,

Worked with a guy in NFHS and we worked out a pretty
good way to handle this situation.

Runner on 2B - BU had responsibilty for that runner until she stopped or scored.
PU had BR until she stopped.

We always discussed this procedures prior to games. Lived in same
town, drove to games together.

We used hand signals to remind partner their responsibilies.

Yes, it was easy to go back when working with different partners. Others
liked the procedure we used and used it when working with one of us. We
did not push the change on anyone. It is simple and works well for such
plays as I presented. It is not that big of a change. Just remember
to communicate.

Obviously the thing I and my partner forgot in my presented situation.

Try it sometime, You'll like it.

(edited to correct spelling)

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Nov 25th, 2004 at 10:54 PM]

Try turning to page 243 of the 2004 ASA rule book, umpire's edition. The mechanics for both umpires with a runner on 2B only in FP are well defined.

I think too many place far too much emphasis on trailing the runner. Remember the priorities of a call are increased the closer you get to home. Therefore, it is more important for the PU to be in position for the call at 3B than to worry about a pulled foot. I DID NOT SAY THE PU SHOULD NOT HELP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, OR THAT S/HE SHOULDN'T TRAIL THE BR.

Meanwhile, if you have the PU get into position for a call at 1B, you now have no one covering home should R1 fail to stop a 3B. I doubt quite seriously a BU is going to outrun her/him to the plate from outside the diamond. Now, the most important call has been left open because everyone is so damned worried about the call three bases away from a score.

You are sending conflicting messages here, Mike.

Mike: “Try turning to page 243 of the 2004 ASA rule book, umpire's edition. The mechanics for both umpires with a runner on 2B only in FP are well defined.”

When I said that I went to the book and couldn’t find the answer, I couldn’t find your answer when you said: ” Mistake #2. PU is only suppose to move down the line 20' at the most, maybe not as much knowing there was a possible play at 3B. PU should have been turned toward 3B, still watching 1B when the ball was received by F3. The FP field is not that big that the PU shouldn't have at least been in the vicinity of the circle when the play occured at 3B.”

I know what the book states, and I previously quoted it. Page 242 of the 2003 ASA rule book, umpire’s edition: “On hits, move toward third base. Be ready and in position to make a call by going down the left field foul line in foul ground.” On page 216 (Leaving the Plate Area left of Catcher . . . ) we also read “With no runners on base or a runner on first base only, . . . . follow the base runner toward first base in fair ground.”

Thus Mr. ASA of this board and the ASA Umpire Manual have conflicting positions. That is why I asked you ”OK, but what really is the prescribed mechanic for a runner at 2B?” I was looking for background ASA information that was not available to us just simply reading the book.

But now you equivocate: ”I think too many place far too much emphasis on trailing the runner. Remember the priorities of a call are increased the closer you get to home. Therefore, it is more important for the PU to be in position for the call at 3B than to worry about a pulled foot. I DID NOT SAY THE PU SHOULD NOT HELP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, OR THAT S/HE SHOULDN'T TRAIL THE BR.”

Situation: a runner at 2nd base, and the ball hit on the infield. Question:[/I] Does the Plate Umpire (a) trail the B-R towards 1B, or (b) move up the 3rd base line?[/I]

A or B?

WMB

WMB writes:


<b><font size = 5>"Thus Mr. ASA of this board"</b></font>

I know no one has to defend Mike. Mike can speak for
himself.

Remarks such as this, in my opinion, are what is causing
a lot of presented posts from receiving the attention and
credibility they deserve.

Mike has never claimed to be the <b>Mr. ASA of anything!</b>
He clearly knows the rules and apparently does have some
input to higher ups that have aided in getting changes by
ASA.

You have a very good knowledge of the rule system also. (some
times a little lengthly) as noted by another of our esteem collegues,
but normally well presented.

However, I do see more "name calling" by you post than others.

Lets just try to answer the posters questions without "slurring"
the others who are also putting their input forth. We don't all
have the answers nor do the other posters that post here. That is
why they (we) visit this site. To try and learn. Not listen to
one umpire try and put down another. We at one time or another will
all post an answer that is incorrect or that we as individuals
disagree with, but I would hope that we, because of their answer, think
that they, the responder, feel that they are the final authority on
the subject. They merely offered their interpretation of the rule.







[Edited by whiskers_ump on Nov 26th, 2004 at 12:19 PM]

You are correct, there is nothing about trailing the BR once a runner attains 2B prior to the next pitch.

However, like it or not, it is taught to many umpires like backing up the BU at 1B is a priority. It is not, it is part of preventive umpiring and basically a courtesy to your partner.

For those who do, they should never go more than 20' up the line.

Of course, if you didn't compete with the size of War and Peace on every post . . . .

Hey WMB
 

WMB,
I don't know what is going on with you and hope all is well but your posts of the last month or so are getting more confrontational and aggressive.
Are you ok, forget all the officiating stuff,
You have been on this board for a long time and I like your input.
So, this is about you.
What is going on,
Email me privately if you want or we can get together on the phone if you ask for my phone number or send me yours.

Scott

MR ASA

But he IS Mr. ASA of this board! That is not a derogatory statement, that is not name calling. That is a deferential acknowledgment by me of his “insider” status in ASA. However, he did make conflicting statements about the PU mechanic with a runner on 2B.

Now read what I said. “Thus Mr. ASA of this board and the ASA Umpire Manual have conflicting positions. That is why I asked you ”OK, but what really is the prescribed mechanic for a runner at 2B?” I was looking for background ASA information that was not available to us just simply reading the book.

Do I have to interpret that statement? I am simply asking what ASA knowledge he has to support his statement that the rest of us, who only have a printed manual, do not have access.

Keep in mind that many people read this board, seeking information, and not necessarily posting. We owe it to them, and everyone the have correct info here. Anybody that read this post could be confused, but the majority of voices are supporting the PU trailing the B-R to 1B.

I think that is incorrect. But if Mike has supplementary info to support that action, then we all need to hear it.

I still believe that once a runner is in scoring position the PU should NOT go into fair territory. He should go up 3B line and attempt to support the call at 1B as best he can from that position.

WMB

And if you read my post, you would see that I agree.

And as I stated before, many do support trailing a BR even though it is not part of the 2-umpire mechanics. I do not. I may hesitate moving toward 3B to at least try to keep a workable angle should help be required at 1B, but I stay in foul ground anytime a runner begins @ 2B.

OK, but that is not how the printed words read (at least to me).

I'm catching up on the threads from the last week+, and I have to admit, WMB, when I read your reply using the "Mr ASA" title, I took it as pejorative, which I think is a reasonable (even if, as you further explain, incorrect) interpretation of your intent given the somewhat derisive view of ASA you've expressed in the past.

Just remember, we don't have the advantage of hearing your thoughts; we can only go by the words you type.

Cabin fever?
 

You guys are getting kinda touchy. Is the weather up north keeping you inside too long? Or is it a shortage of sunlight?

Re: Cabin fever?
 

Are you kidding?

The weather around here is GREAT! Wake up with a touch of frost on the grass, crisp clean air to breath. Clear skies with the highs reaching the mid-40's with a 5-8 mph breeze.

The fresh air really envigorates your body. If we are lucky, we'll get a little snow in the next couple of weeks.

What a great time of the year!

BTW, all you folks down South who think they have the best weather in the world, do me a favor and keep it down there. I've lived in FL twice and both times were the worst living experiences I have ever had.

I love four seasons and I'm not talking about softball. BTW, shoveling snow is one of the best cardio workout in the world.