Coed slopitch and the plate line vs home plate

SactoBlue · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 06:18pm

Situation: Coed slo pitch rec, instead of having to touch home plate to score a run there is a line the runners cross that extends from home plate to backstop to score. Supposed to keep the typically unskilled catcher from getting run over by an overzealous runner on close plays at home....never a tag, always a force.

I had a close play at home and in my typical fashion I was moving to cover that play backing up in foul ground and backed into the runner trying to score from 3rd. I can't see him because I'm backing up. I recognize that with this situation I'm not in the right place to call this because instead of the runner being in front of me he's running in back of me ..... but training you know. IMHO had I not backed into the runners path he would have scored. We're talking only a one stride from crossing the line. Ball came to catcher who had foot on mat to get the force.

Needless to say, because I blocked the runner the ball got there 1st.

I ruled that the run scored because I backed into runner at last second .... my fault I'm thinking. Of course no matter the call I was going to hear it.

Anyone got any opinions on the ruling? There weren't any rules covering this obviously since it's a league rule. Was I "part of the field of play" in this situation, even though had I not moved there would have been no contact.

thanks.

KentuckyBlue · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 07:20pm

Ky Blue replies:
I like the idea of the line. I always worry about collisions at home in my co-rec softball, especially now that everybody's wearing sharp jewelry. As you rightly point out, no correct call is possible, so go with your instincts as you did. Sell a call against yourself. "I'm guilty of umpire interference, so the run scores. My bad, my fault, let's re-set and play ball." There's nothing anyone can aay. I'm thinking of other situations where the umpire might affect play and what might happen, and most cases I can think of involve runner replacement, very few involve calling anybody out. I'm going to suggest your innovation to my co-ed leagues and see what the powers-that-be say. Thanks for the idea!

IRISHMAFIA · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 08:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SactoBlue
Situation: Coed slo pitch rec, instead of having to touch home plate to score a run there is a line the runners cross that extends from home plate to backstop to score. Supposed to keep the typically unskilled catcher from getting run over by an overzealous runner on close plays at home....never a tag, always a force.

I had a close play at home and in my typical fashion I was moving to cover that play backing up in foul ground and backed into the runner trying to score from 3rd. I can't see him because I'm backing up. I recognize that with this situation I'm not in the right place to call this because instead of the runner being in front of me he's running in back of me ..... but training you know. IMHO had I not backed into the runners path he would have scored. We're talking only a one stride from crossing the line. Ball came to catcher who had foot on mat to get the force.

Needless to say, because I blocked the runner the ball got there 1st.

I ruled that the run scored because I backed into runner at last second .... my fault I'm thinking. Of course no matter the call I was going to hear it.

Anyone got any opinions on the ruling? There weren't any rules covering this obviously since it's a league rule. Was I "part of the field of play" in this situation, even though had I not moved there would have been no contact.

thanks.

Yes, you are part of the field. However, I'm trying to figure why you are back up.

Bagman62 · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 15, 2004, 10:26am

I think, POE #32 in ASA would give guidance in the situation even though coed is not specified, last sentence. "In no other case is umpire interference ruled."

Runner Out, and you have a conversation with someone.

SactoBlue · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 15, 2004, 12:17pm

Regarding the backing up question ...... Single umpire .... when ball was hit I came out from behind plate to get a look and make calls on bases. I'm not very far out from baseline as I recall so I saw the ball being thrown, or about to be thrown, toward home and began to back up a few steps...wrong..yeah but that's what I did. As catcher was getting into position for the play at the plate I was trying to get into position behind plate so i could see the play....but forgot about the runner running in back of me...instinct said play would be in front of me....well it was in both places.......duh!

No one really got upset "after" my explanation because there was one but they were a bit testy when I first ruled.

I just wanted to get a consensus on what most officials would have done ..... I was trying to be fair to both sides knowing I was the one that messed up.

Dakota · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 15, 2004, 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SactoBlue
I was trying to be fair to both sides knowing I was the one that messed up.

Can't fault the sentiment, but the rules say the play stands. It is treated no differently than if the runner had tripped up over a lump of dirt.

IRISHMAFIA · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 04:12am

Quote:

Originally posted by SactoBlue
Regarding the backing up question ...... Single umpire .... when ball was hit I came out from behind plate to get a look and make calls on bases. I'm not very far out from baseline as I recall so I saw the ball being thrown, or about to be thrown, toward home and began to back up a few steps...wrong..yeah but that's what I did. As catcher was getting into position for the play at the plate I was trying to get into position behind plate so i could see the play....but forgot about the runner running in back of me...instinct said play would be in front of me....well it was in both places.......duh!

Where was the ball in the outfield? If coming from the left side, might I suggest you make that call from the 1st base side of the plate.

If coming from the right side, well, yeah it's going to be tough. That's the difference with a 2nd plate. If there is a plate, the runner MUST go to a certain point. With just a line, the runner can basically run anywhere between the plate and the backstop which means the umpire may have a difficult time getting into the proper position to see the entire play.

CecilOne · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 09:43am

That's why it's a stupid rule. Let them play. If it was just that the out had to be a "simulated force" and no tags, that would eliminate most collisions. Besides, it handicaps team that actually have a usable catcher.

A second part of that "rule" I've seen is that the runner is out if they touch the plate. Most can't get it that it only applies when there is a play being made. No one gets it that with one umpire, no one is watching if there is a play elsewhere. And that rule, if it is for collision avoidance, implies that catchers are only 17 inches wide. If you have to have that nonsense, make it a rule against using the full width of the normal basepath, three feet on either side of the foul line.

Then we've seen the point of no return line. What is the use of that, besides removing any judgement by the runner?

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 18, 2004, 12:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne

Then we've seen the point of no return line. What is the use of that, besides removing any judgement by the runner?

You obviously are not involved with these type of games. If everything at home is a force out, there needs to be a specific point in time when it becomes a force. If there was no commitment line, then every time a runner touched 3rd, a throw home could be arguably a force out on a runner rounding or stepping off the base even if there is no attempt to advance.

That is why there is a commitment line.

CecilOne · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 18, 2004, 02:26pm

I do occasionally umpire these games. My understanding of the "force out" is avoiding tag outs, that the runner is out if the fielder touches the plate with ball in possession before the runner crosses "the plate line". Now I understand the line of no return.

mcrowder · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 18, 2004, 03:44pm

Equate this situation to one that might happen in a "normal" game.

Umpire inadvertently gets in the way of a runnner approaching second or third base and is thsn forced out by less than a step. (Say runners on 1st and 2nd, liner to left, Umpire in C moving inside bumps the runner around shortstop, slowing them just enough to get out.) What do you rule? Should be the same here.

gsf23 · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 27, 2004, 03:57pm

Had a situation like this happen in a game I was playing in. Runner at second, line drive one hops out the the centerfielder. CF comes up firing to home, catcher is yelling for the cut cause throw is a little off line. Umpire behind the plate tries to step out into the infield to get a look at a play on the batter-runner rounding. Umpire and the guy coming home collide as the umpire is stepping out, both go down about 5 feet from home plate. Throw comes through to home, catcher gets the ball jogs over and tags the runner. Umpire, lying on his back looks over...sees the tag and rings up the runner.

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 28, 2004, 06:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Had a situation like this happen in a game I was playing in. Runner at second, line drive one hops out the the centerfielder. CF comes up firing to home, catcher is yelling for the cut cause throw is a little off line. Umpire behind the plate tries to step out into the infield to get a look at a play on the batter-runner rounding. Umpire and the guy coming home collide as the umpire is stepping out, both go down about 5 feet from home plate. Throw comes through to home, catcher gets the ball jogs over and tags the runner. Umpire, lying on his back looks over...sees the tag and rings up the runner.

#1 If the umpire was going to trail the BR (which isn't advised at this point), why wasn't he out from behind the plate immediately following the ht?

#2 In the games using a second plate or line, a tag is not an option. Either the plate is touched for an out or there is no out.

gsf23 · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 28, 2004, 09:24am

This wasn't a game with the plate line and there was no force so a tag needed to be applied. I was trying to relate this to mcrowder's question.

As far as the umpire positioning, it was a single umpire game and I was playing. The only thing I can think of is that he figured since the ball was being cut and it was off line there would be no play at the plate so was trying to get in line for a play on the infield and just didn't move quick enough.

Question I guess is would calling the runner out be the right call and from what was posted previously I would have to say yes and too bad for the runner.

IRISHMAFIA · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 28, 2004, 11:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
This wasn't a game with the plate line and there was no force so a tag needed to be applied. I was trying to relate this to mcrowder's question.

As far as the umpire positioning, it was a single umpire game and I was playing. The only thing I can think of is that he figured since the ball was being cut and it was off line there would be no play at the plate so was trying to get in line for a play on the infield and just didn't move quick enough.

Question I guess is would calling the runner out be the right call and from what was posted previously I would have to say yes and too bad for the runner.

Sorry, my misunderstanding.

Listening to the players can be helpful, but I never base my actions on something I hear because I don't trust them to make the play