ASA girls fastpitch game, (HS using ASA rules). Had a play occur which I have never seen happen before. Partner and I got together and made the ruling which satisfied both benches, and I believe was correct, yet I can't seem to locate a specific ruling, or case play for this one. I would like to get the boards help on this one.

Runners 2nd and 3rd, 0 outs. Batter swings and misses at D3K. Ball richochets off backstop and rolls over to 3rd base dugout area. Batter tosses bat and heads to first, other runners move on D3K. The tossed bat hits the deflected wild pitch in foul territory, drastically changing it's trajectory. R1 had already moved up to home before contact, R2 made 3B after bat contact, batter had not reached first. I allowed play to finish out thinking this was not a DDB, or DB situation. We then made a ruling on the play.
This is the edited part. I forgot to add, after bat contact R2 crossed home, BR made 2B.

What is your call? I will report ours later.

[Edited by JEL on Sep 2nd, 2004 at 09:17 AM]

EEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
What a furball,
got to think about this one a bit.

Jel,

HTBT to see it, but I really don't know. Enlighten me on this please.

thanks
Buddha

IF it's intentional on the part of the batter, then you've got a deadball (time of the pitch, I believe) and the batter would be called out for interference.

If the contact between the bat and the passed ball is incidental (which this sounds like), then you've got nothing (unless the ball enters Dead Ball Territory). Catcher should have caught the original pitch; pitcher should have put the ball in a location that it could have been caught. Offense really DID nothing wrong.

Sounds like the bat was thrown pretty far. But there is a lot of uncertainties about the final locations of the bouncing bat and the rebounding ball. How can you blame, and hence penalize, anyone unless you feel the bat toss was intentionally at the ball?

Seems like we have discussed this before but perhaps it was NFHS rules - ther emay be some different, specific ruling for ASA.

DT TB pretty much nailed the situation unless you consider ASA POE #51 "If the bat slips from the batter's hands (opposed to intentional throwing), there is no penalty UNLESS the discarded bat prevents the defence from making a play, then interference should be ruled"

I guess you had to be there and have the ability to sell you decision because somebody is going to be unhappy.

If the ball is off the backstop and over at the third base dugout and the bat hits the ball.... I can't see it as anything but interference. DB, batter out, runners put at the last base they had reached at the time of the interference.

One rule book says it has to be intentional, the other does not and I always have to look it up in the spring.
If ASA is the one that does not have to be intentional, then the batter is out for INT, the ball is dead at that moment and all runners go to LBT.
If ASA is the one that does have to be intentional, then no one is out for INT, the ball is live and all runners get what they can.

Downtown, and Bagman both raise interesting points which we considered in our final ruling.

A bit more info, Downtown, actually the bat wasn't thrown far at all, about 5 feet from home towards 3B dugout. These fields were built with a 3.5' concrete wall as the lower part of the backstop. Wild pitches can bounce almost anywhere, even back to the pitcher at times. I call it our "green monster" and is has broken at least one catchers arm!

Bagman, I thought about POE 51 (and that is what our ruling was loosely based on), but POE 32B gave us the option of saying INT had not occured. The diifference I am reading between the two is 32 clarifies 51 stating that released bat hitting the catcher and preventing is INT, where as merely dropping the bat and catcher tripping over it is not.

All of the bat hitting ball rulings I can find deal with a fair hit ball, and not a wild pitch. The catcher was chasing the ball, and in my judgement would have been able to keep the second run from scoring, assuming she could actually pick up the ball. She was 6-8 feet from it when the bat sent it out past 3B allowing second run to score.

The defensive coach was screaming "detached equipment, thats a dead ball" which I knew wasn't right, so I let it all finish noting position of runners at time of bat contact. I then conferred with my partner, who happens to be our UIC, (the first time I have ever called with him). We decided that POE 51 should apply, because the catcher may have had a play on the ball. We returned R2 to 3B, and BR to 1B, bringing up a new batter. This placated both coaches, but the defensive coach (who has supposedly umpired for 18 years) wanted to make sure there was no count on the batter!

Even though the call made both benches happy, I am convinced now it was wrong. Play should have stood as it went down. I may never see an exact copy of this one, but if it comes up again, I will know how to rule! BTW, offensive team was ahead by 3 runs, going on to win by 6-1.

If the ball hits the bat .... Then you have nothing.
If the bat hits the ball .... Then you have dead ball and a out.

In this case it sounds like a mess and HTBT, however, based on whay you described I would have ruled a live ball .... Keep the runners where they ended up.

POE 32B does not apply. You are not dealing with a batter, but a batter-runner.

Forget the POE. Go to ASA 8.2.F for your answer. The BR is out and the runners returned. Next batter, please.

Thanks, Mike
I just found the part of the sentence "discards their bat which prevents the defense from making a play on the ball"

You Da Man

Yep, That's it the part about interefering with D3K is what I needed.

Reckon it's too late to get that out now?

POE 32B does not apply. You are not dealing with a batter, but a batter-runner.

Forget the POE. Go to ASA 8.2.F for your answer. The BR is out and the runners returned. Next batter, please.

[/B][/QUOTE] Jel stated the catcher had no chance of making a play on the runner (in her judgement) . Would this rule still apply ? Brian

Well, I never saw where Jel stated that, but it was posted that R1 did reach home before the contact, which I find very hard to believe given the way the scenario was presented. However, if that was the case the run would score, but R2 would return to 2B. How can one determine whether the defense had a play if there was never the opportunity to attain the ball on it's initial path while there was still an active runner?

Yes, the rule still applies.