Need Input on Bunt on 3rd Strike out

[Bagman62]

I would like to have some input regarding "What is a Bunt?" There is a 2 strike count on the batter, and a bunt on the 3rd strike is an out, what in your judgement is a bunt, what are you looking for in bat position, breaking of writsts, batter moving from rear of box to front of box, batter stationary and squared, bat into ball or ball into bat and these various actions that would make or not make a batted ball a bunt?

Thanks for the input.

[CecilOne]

Batter's hands separated, bat in front of ball before it arrives, bat head not moving faster than handle; maybe batter squared around.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Bagman62
There is a 2 strike count on the batter, and a bunt on the 3rd strike is an out...

This is only true if said bunt is foul!

[WestMichBlue]

Cecilone: "Batter's hands separated"

This is your key! If the hands are separated, the bat cannot be swing, it can only be pushed at the ball.
And if you are pushing at the ball, no matter how hard, that is a bunt.

If the batter squares to bunt, her hands will normally be separated (though I admit that some very experience bunters will bunt with both hands together, but in the middle of the bat). If the batter "slap hits" out of the bunt stance, her hands will come back together so that her wrists can break on the swing.

If the batter is running forward, she may be trying to push a bunt, or may be trying to slap hit. Again, watch for the position of the hands.

Finally, if you are working a game of (relatively) experienced players, and you have a batter that runs forward and appears to bunt with two strikes on her you can assume that she knows what she is doing and she is not trying to bunt the 3rd strike.

I learned that the hard way. H.S. senior, team's lead-off batter, ran forward and (I thought) bunted foul. I called her out. She looked at me incredulously. “That was a slap-hit” she said. “Do you think that I am dumb enough to bunt a third strike?” That was the last time that I made that mistake.

WMB

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by CecilOne
...bat head not moving faster than handle...

In 1964, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart issued an opinion in JACOBELLIS vs. OHIO, which apparently had something to do with bunts. He stated, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material... but I know it when I see it."

There are many guidelines to a check swing, but it is ultimately only the umpire's opinion of whether the batter attempted to strike at the ball. With a bunt, it utimately gets to whether the umpire thinks the batter is bunting or not, but bat head moving faster than the handle is a very good guide.

[Edited by SC Ump on Aug 18th, 2004 at 07:20 PM]

[CecilOne]

You two made my day!

[Bagman62]

Thanks, I had this situation is a AAAA HS game last night situation.
6th inning 0 - 0 and R1 on 2B with batter attempting "Slap Hit" 2 Strikes and 2 Balls every pitch is an attempt or a pull back then a another attempt and I call Foul, the defensive coach comes out to argue 3rd strike foul bunt out, I say NO and mild discussion, same thing on next pitch and coach returns and questions again, I reply "still foul ball" coach returns to dugout, 3 more foul balls and then, swing and miss, out. Game ends in 8th, home 2 visitor 1 and we leave.

I discussed this with my partner and he said from his view at "C" position the first call could have gone either way but there was no doubt on all the others, I guess I had a similar experience to WMB.

All input appreciated, after all it does come down to umpire judgement.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I think this topic is worthy of more discussion.

The rule of thumbs given are very good - hand separated, bat not moving faster than hands. Those are assuredly bunts.

But I also feel a bunt can be described by answering the question "To where are you trying to hit the ball? In front of the defenders or through the defenders?"

An attempt to lay the ball down at the front of the diamond can easily be made with a style similar to a slap hit - hands together, bat head moving faster than the hands but just fast enough to get it in front of the ball - kind of a dead slap with no follow-through.

I've called such attempts a bunt and if it was a third strike foul, I've called the batter out. For me it was easy to defend that decision. Have only received minimal rebuttal from the offensive coach.

Conversely, I've had batters square with hands apart and as the ball arrives with defenders running up, forcefully try to slap that ball past/through the infield defenders by slightly pulling their hands back towards each other (but not fully together) and pushing the entire bat forward toward the outfield as part of the slap action. NOT A BUNT.

For me the difference between the two is where they are trying to place the ball - in front of the defenders, to me means bunt; behind or through the defenders, to me means slap hit. The batters' style may be inconsequential.

Just a little bit different opinion. Whatever choice you make to describe and define a bunt attempt, you've got to make it strongly because one coach is going to like and the other is not. It is a situation that calls for the umpire to be resolute.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Aug 19th, 2004 at 10:03 AM]

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

Bagman,

I would say you were correct, but then I know you and know how you conduct games~~~every rule, the right way! That's why I always enjoyed working with you. We both call by the rule book in every situation. This situation did not protray a bunt on 3rd strike, but of course some folks HTBT.
Don't over analyze, you know most HS coaches don't know near as much as travel ball coaches do!

Love Ya!

[greymule]

My only difficulty with this call has been as follows. Especially at lower levels, I've seen batters react instinctively to pitches coming at them by trying to block the ball with the bat. It could certainly be argued that these qualify as (admittedly awkward-looking) bunt attempts, even though they're really just self-protection.

One girl, as a high inside pitch came toward her, backed away, and then in a panic moved the bat in front of her face and deflected the ball foul. It certainly wasn't a swing, but it's hard to say she was truly attempting to tap the ball slowly into the infield.

On another occasion, a girl did basically the same thing but barely got a piece of the ball, and it hit her face hard enough that she had to leave the game.

And yes, some expert bunters do simply loosen their hands at the last moment so that the bat drops and they can tap the ball where they want it.