U-12 FP Softball ASA rules. I am PU. Runner on third no outs. Ground ball to F6, F6 throws a bullet to F2 who is approximately 3ft up the 3d base line. F2 has ball in glove blocking baseline awaiting the arrival of the runner.
Runner bumps F2 as F2 is applying the tag. Ball comes loose as a result of the bump, collision, (not malicious)by runner.

Is runner out or safe??

Jim

If the "BUMP" was not agressive, and the runner was trying to run by the fielder not through the fielder..and the ball was dropped ?, I say "safe". If the only attempt made by the runner was to have a crash..then dead ball, "out".

Safe...No control.

The ball was dropped as a result of the Bump (collision) by the runner. The catcher had the ball in the glove under control waiting for the runner.

Still safe??

YES. A "bump" is not a "collision". When F2 dropped the ball, she no longer had control. It's the same as if she made a leghal slide, and F2 dropped the ball.

If it were a slide, yes. Otherwise, no (8.7.Q).

Now someone is going to argue the word "crash". The rule book does not offer such a definition. I will hang my hat on the runner remaining upright and it being a fact that the fielder was not losing or never had control of the ball prior to attempting to apply a tag.

Why so tough, you may ask. Because it creates inconsistent rulings if we allow each umpire to determine how rough contact is too rough to be considered incidental. This isn't as situation as describe on page 233 of this year's book where collision courses are part of the game as each player has particular rights. As I read the scenario, the runner had the option of going over, under, around, sliding through the fielder or reversing her direction. Running into the player, no matter how innocent really isn't an option.

It depends. If the runner was trying to avoid F2 by going around her, and F2 reaches out to tag and loses the ball, SAFE.

Mike,
If the runner were to slide she would land up 3ft short of home.

The ball was dropped only because the runner bumped into F2 as F2 was making the tag.
Jim

It depends. If the runner was trying to avoid F2 by going around her, and F2 reaches out to tag and loses the ball, SAFE

The runner did nothing to avoid the tag. She just bumped F2 as F2 tagged her and the ball fell out of F2's glove. As I recollect, the runner slowed down to avoid a "collision" however she still hit F2 and the ball fell to the ground.
Jim

I've still got the runner safe....We don't appear to have anything malicious or flagerant....So the runner is safe....

Speaking ASA, which is how the scenario was presented, intent, malicious or flagrant, is not required.

For that matter, the play as presented pretty much had the defense sitting and waiting on the runner, which gives me the impression the runner had time to keep from making contact with the catcher.

There is no doubt this is something each of us would have to see before making an absolute ruling. However, since a replay is not available to us, I've got to work with the impression the written scenario offers. For a runner to just run, or even walk, into the fielder with the ball makes no sense and at a higher age level, would probably be considered confrontational.

keller - maliciousness is not at issue. Intent isn't even at issue. Obviously, with the play 3 feet up the line, sliding is not appropriate. However, she has to try to avoid contact.

If the runner tried to run around, and then movement by the catcher toward the batter caused the contact that left the ball rolling, by all means, call her safe.

But the runner can't just allow contact to happen. It is clearly (by the rulebook and the casebook) the runner's responsibility to avoid the contact if the ball is already in possession of the fielder, and the fielder is in front of the runner. Go back, go around ... but don't cause the contact. period.

I have an out.

It is not possible for there to be a non-contact tag.

Did the runner run straight-line into the fielder? INT / OUT.

Did the runner twist or swerve to try to avoid the tag but the fielder moved over too? INCINDENTAL CONTACT / SAFE.

Somewhere in between? That's why you're there!

<b>Now someone is going to argue the word "crash".</b>

Right. If they means "bumps," "runs into," "contacts," or something similar, they should say so. However, it is true that umpires have their own various concepts of what constitutes a "crash," and that's one reason this play causes so many problems. I've had players run through a tag, avoiding contact with the body but hitting the outstretched glove, and when they knock the ball out everyone is screaming for a violation. I've had 10 guys in my face because a hard-charging runner stayed up when scoring, even though the ball was at the backstop and <i>no contact at all</i> was made with the catcher. Four guys suspended for 2 weeks.

I like to keep in mind the origin of ASA's rule, back around 1980. They wanted to avoid the obligatory MLB-type crash at home when the catcher had the ball and was waiting for the tag. Maybe things have evolved, but they were not trying to preclude all physical contact.

To me, a bump is not a crash, though I do want to see some attempt to avoid.

Unquestionably safe
 

Minor incidental contact. Defender DID NOT HAVE adequate CONTROL OF THE BALL - it fell out with minor incidental contact. Runner is Safe.

The only way to rule an out would be following intentional or malicious contact - that didn't happen. The runner must be called safe. So sad; too bad coach; hold on to the ball.

The runner must do something wrong for the umpire to arrive at some ruling that punishes the runner.

This is not a grey area - the ball is either controlled (held) or it falls out. There is no middle ground.