Ok, boy am I glad these happen on other fields! Here is the play, bottom of the last inning, tie score R1 on 3rd 2 outs. Batter hits to the short stop, R1 heading home. Batter runner gets hit with the ball as she is about 2 feet from 1st base (no intentional interference, runner is starting to cross over to touch the single base) BR then misses first base while overrunning it. First base woman picks up the ball and tags the BR before she retouches first base (live ball appeal for the missed base). NOW, R1 has touched home prior to the tag for the missed base. So the big question, does the run score???

My thought is yes, run scores as the appeal is a timing play. The discussion was around whether the batter runner being out is a "force" that would eliminate the run. My thought is no, as once a runner has passed a base they are considered to have touched it, until properly appealed. So my answer is BR is safe at first, eliminating the run canceling affects of the third out prior to reaching first and since the runner touched prior to the tag for the appeal then the run scores, let's go home! Did I get it right???

How would you rule if she missed 1st and continued to 2nd (with a correct appeal by defense)??

i'm thinking you got it right .. since force was off and appeal play was on... run scored prior to appeal... I am only questioning the timing. I dont know how long it takes for a passed base to turn into an appeal. Is it immediate? I dont think it does until a safe signal is given. If no safe signal was given at 1B could be still part of the original play.

Tough sucky way to end a game... Ill be interested in the "pro opinion" on this.

[Edited by wadeintothem on May 28th, 2004 at 10:26 AM]

Think again, specifically, think about Kono's question.

let me clarify what I think.. depending on whether the runner was called safe at first prior to appeal tag. If called safe at first and was called out on appeal - BR out (not safe) at 1B- Run scores - game over (same result as his scenario)..

I admit I dont know for sure.. I like to answer some stuff just to see if I get it right when the big boys answer.

Okay - try thinking (or reading ??) about the "apparent 4th out"

The appeal is for missing the base, and is treated the same as a put out prior to reaching the base. No run scores.

A timing play would be, for example, if the BR overran the base and made an attempt to 2nd and was tagged out. In that case, the run would score if the runner crossed before the tag.

would 8.7.G cover this play ?

Yeppers. <img src=http://www.officialforum.com/images/icons/icon14.gif>

SamC

BTW, are you sure this was a live ball appeal for a missed base and not tagging the runner hoping she would be called out for making a try at 2nd? If you're sure, how do you know? Did the fielder say something?

Ooo - that's a great question, Dakota.

Mike R - if there's a live ball appeal in effect (i.e. runner misses the base), and fielder tags the runner without necessarily indicating she's making an appeal - do we assume she is?

3 examples (assume for all three that F3 merely tags runner without saying anything or otherwise indicating she's appealing the missed bag) -

1) runner overruns first, continues straight, and is walking back to first base in foul ground when she's tagged.

2) runner overruns first, thinks the ball got away and makes a half-step toward second, realizes the ball is in F3's glove, and walks back to first base when she's tagged (assume, in this case, that had there been no live-ball appeal in effect, her movement to 2nd was enough that you'd be calling her out when tagged anyway)

3) runner overruns first, makes the half-step toward second, and tries to dive back to first base under the tag, and is tagged.

Do you treat these three situations the same, or differently?

ASSUMING THEY ALL MISSED 1B:

Quote:

1) runner overruns first, continues straight, and is walking back to first base in foul ground when she's tagged.

Assuming the BR did nothing to give me the impression s/he was going to attempt to go to 2nd, it depends on the reaction of 1B. If it is obvious to me that she is aware the base was missed and is chasing her down, I consider that an obvious appeal. If she is just nonchalantly hanging near the base and just slaps the runner with no comment or indication of the purpose, it is nothing.

Quote:

2) runner overruns first, thinks the ball got away and makes a half-step toward second, realizes the ball is in F3's glove, and walks back to first base when she's tagged (assume, in this case, that had there been no live-ball appeal in effect, her movement to 2nd was enough that you'd be calling her out when tagged anyway)

Out. The rule states that a runner who does this is and is tagged. (8.7.H)

Quote:

3) runner overruns first, makes the half-step toward second, and tries to dive back to first base under the tag, and is tagged.

If I believed that "half-step" was intent, same as #2

Quote:

Do you treat these three situations the same, or differently?

In the two plays where the runner places themselves in jeopardy, they are out when tagged by rule, this is not an appeal play.

BR never tagged 1B. Defense makes legal appeal, tags BR. How can a run score if the BR never reached 1B safely?

Ive never heard of an appeal being a timing play in itself. Since the appeal has to be made before the next pitch/play/before defense leaves fair territory, I always thought that a potential appeal was part of the play itself, until the next play or "time" ended that play. Thus I would not have scored the runner from 3d. Am I wrong?

An appeal play is a timing play. For example, if a runner leaves a base before a fly ball is caught, an outfielder throwing the ball to a base is a form of appeal.

You are correct that in the above that the runner from 3b would not score, but you are stating the wrong reason. The reason the runner would not score, is that no runs can score when a batter runner makes the third out before reaching first base successfully.

Another example. Bases loaded, two outs, BR hits the ball over the fence for an apparent home run. If BR misses first base on his grand slam trot around the bases, and if the defense then successfully appeals, no runs would score.