We had a discussion a few months ago about implied times out; ie., brushing plate, checking for count. My assumption is that we wait for all play to cease before taking either of these actions.

My question is "do you have an implied TO when you go to partner on a checked swing?"

Let's assume R1 comes way off 2B on the pitch. Batter tries to hold up and PU calls BALL. F2 asks PU to check with BU. While everyone is looking to PU for his call, R1 breaks for 3B and beats the throw from a surprised F2.

Legal?

WMB

My first reaction to the question was yes, an implied timeout and the "umpire tending to duties" would seem to support this. But, the runner should have the right to take advantage of a "lead" and the inattentive defense. So it is a question, but I would go with my initial implied timeout thought and return the runner, as the advantage was not really the defense but the need for the umpire to resolve a call.

I'll just say what I do.. say active plays go on.. scoring etc.. when the ball is in the pitchers circle, all play has ceased : and I have stuff to do - usually clean plate, get back behind the plate, put mask back, I yell time... and take care of my business. I dont imply it, i yell it and signal it.

For your situation.. I don't know... I havent had that happen so I will await to learn .. but Ive never worked with a crew so....

WMB,

Since the desired procedure to ask for help is "removing your
mask, step out from behind the catcher and seek the help required",
I got time. Just like cleaning off HP. When you go back behind the
plate with mask on, and have the attention of the pitcher give the
count to reinforce the call.

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Apr 18th, 2004 at 08:47 PM]

Just my two cents - In slow pitch on every pitch that is not hit you have and implied timeout.

In FP the only timeout is when you announce TIME after playing actions have ceased. Then you check with your partner.

Not any more.

Speaking ASA, I don't think there is nothing "implied" about it. ASA 10.8.B, E & H covers it. Just because the umpire doesn't raise both hands and pronounce "TIME" doesn't mean they cannot suspend play when necessary.

If the runner is moving prior to the PU asking for help, s/he should be aware of the situation, let the play finish and then ask for help on the swing. If the runner is moving on the pitch, the BU is going to be just a bit busy with the runner as it is if they are doing their job.

Once the umpire steps out from behind the plate, no action is possible other than the request and response.

Mike sorry. I don't do ASA anymore and forgot that you can now steal in slow pitch.

What is your thoughts on the question concerning fastpitch?
Is there and implied timeout when you still have a runner off base at second and the ball is not in the circle for the look back rule to be infect.

Woodchuck,

Not Mike, but my thoughts on this:

Is there an implied timeout when you still have a runner off base at second
and the ball is not in the circle for the look back rule to be infect.
________________________________________

No, the runner must be allowed to do whatever it is she has set in her mind.
Usually F2 is still holding the ball when asking for an appeal on a check
swing. However, IMHO, if the runner is standing on base and I have been
asked to check with my partner, then when I remove my mask and go to him/her,
I have time. Since I will move forward a few feet, mask in hand, I am
having a discussion with a partner. No play would be allowed.

Actually, Mike said the same thing in his original post. I
just re-read it.

Sorry.

So it sounds like everybody is in agreement - implied time out. It's easy to say this with the keyboard, but I don't believe you do it in the real world.

We have a runner standing halv way to 3B; F2 is holding the ball and asking you to "appeal." But you are doing nothing, because you can not call time, implied or real, until the play is finished. Suddenly there is silence; nobody is moving; its like suspended in time in some old movie.

But in the real world this happens fast. Catcher asks; Blue points; partner responds. I've never seen un umpire stop and look around, and refuse to ask until the runner went back to the base.

Even though this normally happens quickly, there is a pause while everyone is waiting for the final answer. So I am curious of what you would do if the runner, who is legally off the base, caught the defense by suprise by running to 3B.

Now what?

WMB

If the runner isn't moving, there is no play if it is obvious the catcher isn't throwing the ball anywhere.

The umpire may suspend play at anytime they believe it necessary (ASA 10.8.A), so there is no excuse to let yourself get into a quandry over something like this.

I'm watching this thread working my way through it for the day it happens.
Allow me to ramble...


Calls (strike ball) are mostly done during live ball situations.. there is no requirement to wait for ball or strike call prior to an offensive action.

The result of that appeal does not affect the steal, i.e. the steal could have been done whether the call was a strike or a ball.

It would seem to me this is simply an error by the defense.

In the case where it is not an error by the defense..say the ump feels the ball was dead he can correct it easy enough... put the player back to the base if appropriate. Until then, the defense and offense should behave as if a ball game was underway.

Sounds to me like this is on the defense.. and nice try at taking a legal steal away from the offense.. next time someones stealing a base during live ball, worry about that and not the ball strike call.. that can be handled any time before the next pitch.

One out. R3, R2. 3-2 on the batter. Runners off with the pitch. Checked swing, ball gets past F2, bounces away. "TIME! Did she go?" "No." "Ball four, take your base." R3 and R2 had crossed the plate while the defense was chasing down the ball. You've called time. Runners may not advance on a dead ball, unless forced or bases are awarded. How do you explain to the offensive coach that R3 and R2 must return to their bases?

The PU should not honor the appeal while continuous action is ongoing. If the defense wants to pause and wait for the umpire (who is waiting for the action to stop), that is their choice, but it is a dangerous one.

Otherwise, once the PU steps out, takes off his mask, etc., it could be considered an implied time out. No formal TIME is required.

And just how are you going to handle this (IMO "silly") implied time out on a checked swing with an uncaught third strike!!!!!!?

Roger Greene
(I certianlly hope no other codes move to this interp.)

Bluezebra - in your situation, BR should be running to 1st base anyway. If it's ball 4, and it's loose, she should be thinking about second base. If it's strike 3, and it's loose, she should be heading to first on a dropped 3rd strike (and maybe also thinking about second base).

Here's my issue with all of those advocating calling timeout for a check swing appeal:

What if there are 2 strikes, and it bounced on the way in. You can't call time for the appeal - this would remove batters right to try for 1st base if it turns out she did swing.

As long as there is a lull in the action (not necessarily even a complete stoppage), there's nothing preventing you from running the appeal during a live ball. I wouldn't do the appeal while BU had other duties (i.e. no lull in the action), but there's no reason to stop play. Defense has to stay aware when there are runners in play not to ignore them during such an appeal - we're not there to protect them from not paying attention.

I view it as a "could be considered" not a "must be considered."

You could consider it an implied time out if the offense tries to use the umpire as a distraction for the defense.

The ASA case book uses an example of the umpire responding to the pitcher asking for the count (Case Play 10.8-2). How would the catcher asking for a checked swing appeal be different?

Because you can have live-ball situations dependent upon the appeal decision (i.e. D3K). There's no live-ball situation dependent on the answer given to the pitcher asking for the B-S count.

If you called time (IMO at inappropriate time).. then you explain to the coach you called time and thats it. End of story. Time was called.

Roger: "And just how are you going to handle this (IMO "silly") implied time out on a checked swing with an uncaught third strike!!!!!!?"

Exactly! Now go back to my "There's Got To Be A Better Way" thread. That action (D3K/Checked Swing)got me in a bind Saturday and I am still looking for some more responses from you'all.

WMB

So are you insinuating that there should be no appeal when the batter has two strikes? I'm sure that isn't what you meant, but that's the way it reads to me.

Who is watching the runners advance and moving into position for a possible call while you are checking with your partner?

On the other hand, even when I worked baseball, I thought the U3K was one of the dumbest things in the world. If the offense wants to get runners on base, let them earn it. It's the offense that missed the ball or watched a third strike. Why should they be awarded a second chance?

I believe this is left-over from the original game (rounders) where in some versions the striker didn't even have to contact the ball, but was still required to run to the first post (or sanctuary).

JMHO,

Why is time out implied by taking off your mask? I always took off my mask when the ball was hit, a pitch got away, there was an attempted steal, etc. No time out implied.

The timeout is not implied by taking off the mask. The timeout is implied by the subsequent action by the umpire. (If a runner attempts to advance as I take my mask off to request count from my partner, I let her go. Then, after the play is over, I go to my partner for the count.)

Bob,

It was the etc.... that is, the umpire-to-umpire communication. As I said, it is not necessarily an implied timeout, but it would be consistent (IMO) with the ASA interpretation if the umpire ruled play was suspended if he needed to.

BTW, some have suggested (or implied :D ) actually calling TIME for this - I don't agree with that.

I still don't understand the need to kill the play for this. It's quick. Question - answer - done. Why the need to call this a timeout?

You don't "NEED" to call time, but it is necessary that runners not be permitted to advance or defense attempt to play on a runner during this period as the umpires are involved in part of their duties that takes there attention away from a possible play.

As far as the U3K, that is a touch situation, but you've seen my opinion of that.