We beat this subject to death in the "BOO" post, but allow me a different wrinkle.

DP is B1, FLEX is F1.

In defensive half of 5th inning coach changes pitchers and announces that SUB1 will pitch and assume the FLEX position. At that point, coach cannot say that SUB1 will bat for the DP because that would be a projected substitute. So all we know is that we have a new FLEX.

In the offensive half of the inning SUB1 comes up to bat in the ninth position and fouls off the first pitch. D Coach appeals for illegal substitute; expects to get an out and SUB1 restricted to the bench.

O Coach says "Sorry, Blue I forget to tell you that FLEX replaced the DP in this half inning and we are now playing with nine." "And yes, she is not supposed to be up yet." There is no penalty for BOO, just send SUB1 back to on-deck circle and bring up B9 with one strike count.

Now you make the call.

WMB

Correct call. Sub1 was already in the game as a substitute for the Flex. Now the Flex would be the substitute for the DP but not an illegal player. Maybe an "unreported" sub which would be a warning to the team but not an out.

It is not BOO. Anytime that the FLEX is on offense for anyone other than the DP you have an illegal substitute.

Rule 3-3-6g Placing the FLEX into one of the first nine positions for someone other than the original DP is considered an illegal substitution. The illegal substitute shall be removed from the gaame and restricted to the doug/bench. See Rule 2-57-2 for additional penalities.

Rule 2-57-2...Illegal Substitue. Anillegal substitute is:
c. (FP) the FLEX who enters the game as a batter or runner in a different position in the batting order than the DP.

Now we go to Rule 3-4 for penalities for illegal subs.

Rule 3-4-1... Illegal offensive or defensive players may be discovered by the umpire or either team anytime after the ball becomes live and an illegal substitute has taken a position as:
a. a runner she has replaced or as a batter in the batter's box;
PENALITY: (a) and (c) Restriction to dugout/bench and called out;.....

Rule 3-4-2...Illegal offensive players may be discovered:
a. when in the batter's box, the ball is live and/or before the batter-runner reaches first base, or is put out and before a pitch is deliverd to the next batter of either team.
PENALITY: Teh illegal substitute is restricted to the bench/dougout and called out. The proper batter is considered to have lost her turn at bat. The next proper batter shall bat.
b. when the illegal batter-runner(s) score, advance or cause a play to be made....and the infraction is dected before the next pitch by either team;
PENALITY: Play is nullified. OUts made on play stand. Runners not put out return to base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch. The illegal substitute is called out and shall be restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. The penality for illegal substitution takes precedence over the batting out-of-order penality.

CASE BOOK 3.3.6 SITUATION F: The FLEX-Smith enters the game to bat fir F1, listed ninth and has a 1-1 count at discovery. RULING: Illegal substitution. Since the FLEX-Smith is at bat, she is declared out and disqualified. She must be replaced by a legal substitute. The FLEX-Smith can only bat in the DP position. (3-4-1a)

I still do not find a rule that says if the FLEX is batting for the DP <U>and</U> if the FLEX bats out of order, then the FLEX is an illegal player and shall be disqualified.
mick

I don't think Woodchuck read it all the way through, Mick.

Initially, he is right. The FLEX is batting in the 9th position and that is an illegal substitute.

But the coach escaped by stating (after the fact) that the FLEX was batting for the DP.

IF you accept that, you have an Unnounced Sub who is now legally in the game. BUT, batting in the wrong order - thus BOO!

My question is whether or not you allow the substitution? Do you effect the penalty for illegal sub immediately, or allow the coach to claim unnounced sub? Obviously the results are decidedly different.

WMB

Thanks, WMB.
That was my point in the other thread.
Either, or.... Not has to be.
mick

1) The FLEX is already in the game, not coming from the bench and is a special case and can not be announced after being in position, like other players can. BOO requires being in the batting order, not just materializing and the special rule for DP/FLEX overrides the unreported sub rule.

As above (my bold):
"Rule 3-3-6g Placing the FLEX into one of the first nine positions for someone other than the original DP is considered an illegal substitution. The illegal substitute shall be removed from the gaame and restricted to the doug/bench. See Rule 2-57-2 for additional penalities.
Rule 2-57-2...Illegal Substitue. An illegal substitute is:
c. (FP) the FLEX who enters the game as a batter or runner in a different position in the batting order than the DP."

So the coach can't do a delayed report.

--------------------------------------
2) I also disagree with "coach cannot say that SUB1 will bat for the DP because that would be a projected substitute"; regardless of whether it is a DP/FLEX or any other position. A sub can replace a player at any position at any time (dead ball, etc.) and DP is a position. Of course, once the SUB 1 for DP is stated, the previous DP can not play (O or D).

"I also disagree with "coach cannot say that SUB1 will bat for the DP because that would be a projected substitute"; regardless of whether it is a DP/FLEX or any other position"

But it is not any other position, Cecil. The FLEX or DP is really a half position; a defensive or offensive position. A sub for the FLEX must be announced in the defensive half of the inning; subbing for the DP occurs during the offensive half.

Whens the coach subs for either position, you don't know anything other than the fact that you have a defensive or offensive (ONLY) change. In the other half of the inning the coach MAY choose to announce the other half of the change. ie., Sub1 in for FLEX in defensive half inning; now coach announces that FLEX will bat, and thus she is now playing with 9.

Or Sub1 in for DP in offensive half inning, then in defensive half inning coach announces that DP will play defense in place of the FLEX, thus she is now playing with nine.

Actually not really that different from normal. Defensive coach tells you she is going to bat #32 for the catcher (#7) when they come up to bat. But #7 is still catching. So you say "Not now, Coach. Give me your sub when you come to bat."

WMB

WMB - From you question it is apparent that the DP is not batting in the #9 position, you never said where she really was batting. Taking that in to consideration, when the new FLEX entered into the batter box and the umpire signial or announced play ball, you now have and illegal substitute. As I stated earlier anytime the FLEX is in the batter's box or on base for someone other than the DP, you have an illegal substitute. Read the rules again and I believe that as long as you are using NFHS Rules you will have an illegal substitute in your situation.

CecilOne - is stating the same thing!

"WMB - From you question it is apparent that the DP is not batting in the #9 position, you never said where she really was batting."

And I repeat: "I don't think Woodchuck read it all the way through, Mick"

From the post that started this thread: "DP is B1, FLEX is F1."

And from NFHS 3.2 "Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is alive and (d) a batter takes her place in the batters box."

NFHS 2.57.2: An unreported substitute is a player who has a legal right to enter the game but has not reported to the umpire prior to her participation.

NOW - does anybody understand the question?

We've had Unreported Sub for years. We should know the difference between an ILLEGAL sub and a LEGAL sub that has not reported.

But this year - 2004 - we have a new definition of an ILLEGAL sub - the FLEX player who enters the game as a batter in a different position in the batting order than the DP.

Unless the DP has already batted in the inning, what is to stop the coach from saying the FLEX is an unannounced sub for the DP - and that the FLEX made a mistake and came to bat in the wrong position? Penalty for ILLEGAL sub is OUT and Restriction to bench. No penalty for BOO, just replace with correct batter.

I am repeating my question: Are you going to immediately effect the penalty for ILLEGAL sub? Or accept the Unnounced Sub response and simply change batters?

WMB

You're just messin' with our heads here, aren't you WMB?

NFHS rules.

The key to this is which came first, the illegal sub or the BOO?

I said (later retracted) in the other thread that the umpire has to choose one, and I would choose US-BOO because that would keep the player in the game (assuming no hint of shenanigans).

However, WMB pointed out that the rules don't give the umpire the choice. I don't think the rules give the umpire the choice here, either.

Take things one at a time.

Take DP/FLEX out of the picture for a moment.

S1 enters the game for B5 in the 3rd. B5 reenters in the 4th. 5th inning, B4 is due up. S1 comes to bat.

Is this an unannounced illegal sub or an unannounced sub BOO?

S1 comes to bat. Once the ball is live, and S1 is in the batter's box, she is now in the game (3-3-3d).

What is she? She is certainly an unannounced sub. Ok, so now she is legally in the game - where? In the B4 position. This is an illegal sub.

The coach lost his option of having this considered BOO when he did not announce the substitution.

Same in WMB's scenario with DP/FLEX. Once the player enters the batter's box with the ball live, she has taken that position in the game. Illegal sub. No option.

BTW, if the umpire is doing his job, the only kind of illegal sub you should EVER have is an unannounced one!

Definition difference.
 

An unreported substitute is not an illegal substitute.
NFHS 2-57- 2,3.

Re: Definition difference.
 

What I meant, Mick, was that if the coach announces to the PU he is re-entering S1 for B4 (my example above), the PU should say, "Coach, you can't do that." So, the only way S1 enters for B4 is unannounced.

However, since you cited the definitions, they reinforce what I said above, All c. does to the definition is treat the FLEX the same as a player in b. IOW, they are negating the technicality that the FLEX is already in the game and hence is not "re-entering" (as required for b. to apply).

Yes, S1 is unannounced, but for B5. (That is the only legal position available for S1.)
S1 still could have merely batted out of turn.
S1 did not substitute for B4.
Unchallenged by defense, the next proper batter is B6, not B5, who S1 replaced.
No change in positions, or batting order.
RE: <U>Bookkeeping</U> - B4 merely missed an "at bat".

Certainly there is nothing wrong with you scenario.
Your interpretation is legitimate as given.
With a poorly written rule, we may conjure all we'd like.
Is that not like artistic license? ;)

mick

If you allow an unanncounced sub coming into an illegal batting order spot (coming to bat) to be treated as BOO, then with an attentive umpire (i.e. an umpire who keeps coaches out of trouble with reported subs), the ONLY illegal sub situation possible for a player coming to bat is a sub who has no re-entries remaining.

Otherwise, if she could have legally re-entered at a different batting order position, then you merely have BOO.

I think the NFHS definitions and the penalties in Rule 3 are more clearly written than that. It seems NFHS wants this treated as an illegal player.

mick

I agree with the sentiment, but it seems to me NFHS has taken the choice out of our hands. To wit NFHS Rule 3-4 ART. 2 PENALTY...

I concede.
 

Tom,
NFHS backs up your interpretation (<I>below</I>) and kicks the heck outa mine.
You are correct. <B><U>I am wrong</B></U>.
Great discussion.
It is clear to me the FLEX may not bat out of turn (<I>Period</I>). If FLEX takes position, out of turn, FLEX is declared out Sitch 12,13; appealed out sitch 14.
mick



SITUATION 12: FLEX-Smith enters the game to bat for F1, listed ninth and has a 1-1 count at discovery. RULING: Illegal substitution. Since the FLEX-Smith is at bat, she is declared out and restricted to the dugout/bench. She must be replaced by a legal substitute. The FLEX-Smith can only bat in the DP position. (3-4-2a; 3-3-6g)

SITUATION 13: DP-Jones bats fourth in the lineup. In the third inning, DP-Jones plays defense for F5, who bats sixth in the order. In the fifth inning, FLEX-Smith, who is listed 10th on the lineup card, bats in the sixth spot for F5. RULING: Illegal substitution. The FLEX can only bat in the DP’s batting position. The FLEX-Smith is called out if still at bat or on base, is restricted to the dugout/bench and replaced with a legal substitute. F5 is considered to have lost her turn at bat and the next proper batter shall bat. (2-57-2c; 3-4-2a; 3-3-6g)

SITUATION 14: Team A is utilizing the DP/FLEX Rule with the DP batting in the fourth spot in the batting order. In the bottom of the fourth inning, Smith, the FLEX player, bats in the 10th spot of the order and reaches first base safely. Before the pitch to the next batter, Team B calls time and informs the plate umpire. RULING: This is considered an illegal substitute. Smith is declared out and restricted to the dugout/bench. The proper batter (lead-off batter) is considered to have lost her turn at bat and the batter in the second position is the next batter. (2-57-2c; 3-3-6g; 3-4-2a)

:rolleyes:

I hear you, but remember that the FLEX can be, and is a legal sub for the DP. (I think that the NFHS did not think this one through far enough.)

In a situation where the sub for the FLEX mistakenly comes to bat, and the umpire is ready to invoke the new ILLEGAL sub penalty, a sharp coach will simply say "Sorry Blue, my mistake. Forgot to tell you that FLEX is batting for the DP - I am now playing with nine."

"And, yes, she got a little excited and come to bat one position too soon. So we'll put her back in the on-deck circle and send the proper batter up."

You don't know if he is trying to salvage a bad situation, or if he honestly did forget to announce the sub.

Seems to me if you are inclined to want to keep the kids in the game that you will accept the coach's explanation and disregard the Illegal sub penalty. If you feel that the rules will let you do that.

WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on Apr 19th, 2004 at 01:17 PM]

My problem is (thanks to YOU!), I no longer think the rules give me that option.

I don't think this is limited to DP/FLEX. Look at 2-57-2b (and the scenario I posted above without DP/FLEX).

Samo, samo. The player could be BOO, but since she is an unannounced sub in an illegal position in the batting order, NFHS insists on the illegal player penalty and does not allow the coach (or the umpire) to skirt by with the BOO penalty.

I have no idea why, but I would guess it is based on some bad actors in actual games.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I hear you, but remember that the FLEX can be, and is a legal sub for the DP. (I think that the NFHS did not think this one through far enough.)


Amen, Fellas!
Amen! :)