Did a JV game yesterday and the home coach says he's substituting for the flex and I say OK. After home team bats he says to me that the sub for the flex actually batted by mistake. Since visitors didn't notice ( how did they score the at bat?) I let it stand and obviously told him to correct his mistake. Since the flex is in the 10th position, and the sub batted the correct batter should have been B1-lead off batter. Had the visitors caught this in time the lead off batter would have been out and B2 would have been due up correct?

Only a legal batter can bat out of order. Flex is not a legal batter.

I have illegal substitute; if discovered while still at bat then batter is out, restricted to bench, B1 loses her turn at bat, and B2 is brought to the plate.

WMB

That depends. What position was due to bat? What position in the line-up was the DP occupying?

If the next batter was the leadoff hitter, then I think that Chasbo is indicating that the sub batted after the 9th batter. Coach probably had the lineup posted in the dugout; the sub saw herself on the sheet after the 9th batter, and she simply went up to bat.

The DP does not enter into the issue. Coach never said he was removing the DP, only removing the Flex. We can not assume anything more than what the coach told us.

WMB

True, WMB, but if the DP was batting #1, you would have an unannounced sub rather than an illegal sub.

Sure she does. The sub came in for the Flex who is permitted to bat for the DP.

As Tom said, this MAY be just an unreported sub. No assumption here, just need more information before offering an opinion/ruling/discussion on the question raised.

WMB has the correct assumption of the batting order. The sub for the flex saw her name and batted as the 10th batter. The DP was batting 6th I believe. So, after #9 batted we should have had #1 but a #10 slipped in there. What's the ruling- boo or illegal sub? WMB I think correctly states that only a legal batter can bat, not the flex.

Not sure about NFHS, but ASA, it is an illegal player violation. The player is DQ'd and all play stands.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 15th, 2004 at 10:16 PM]

ASA
 

chasbro,
If the FLEX bats, then FLEX (must)bats in #6 (Unannounced Substitute for DP) and B7 properly follows.
After a pitch was thrown to FLEX, FLEX was legal.

B1 comes to bat and defense notices "out of order".
B1 is declared out and B7 is the proper batter.
mick

Re: ASA
 

Now that I answered the scenario, maybe I should chime in on the question asked.

Quote:

chasbro, If the FLEX bats, then FLEX (must)bats in #6 (Unannounced Substitute for DP) and B7 properly follows. After a pitch was thrown to FLEX, FLEX was legal.

I don't believe this is right. The Flex is never "legal" unless batting in the #6 hole. In this case, the Flex would be disqualified at any point.

If caught while at bat, B1 would assume the count. If discovered after finishing their turn at bat, B1 would be declared out, the Flex is ruled out, disqualified and any advance by other runners is negated.

If caught after a pitch to the next batter, all play stands, the player is DQ'd, if on base, shall be replaced by a legal substitute or reentry and B7 would assume the count.




[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 15th, 2004 at 10:27 PM]

Re: Re: ASA - I meant NFHS
 

Mike,
I noted ASA, but I kicked it. If you say FLEX is DQ'd, I cannot argue because my ASA book, where ever it is, has 2002 written on the cover.

My answer should have been noted for NFHS, which is the subject of the thread.

It is based on the fact that the new FLEX was not an illegal substitute, but merely a player batting out of order.

Batting out of order once does not warrant a disqualification.
In Fed, an illegal player is disqualified by:

• Being ejected
• Having no re-entry
• By being missing from the roster

The new FLEX was not illegal, but the new FLEX did bat out of order.
When the unannounced new FLEX stepped into the box, the new FLEX was then a legal substitute. Now we both agree that if the FLEX bats at all, the FLEX must bat for the DP in Position #6.
If ASA considers batting out of order to be an ejectable offense (<I>it surely isn't for the no re-entry or for being missing from the roster</I>), I would be very surprised.
Sorry for the confusion.
mick

NFHS 2.57.2: An Illegal Substitute is (c) the FLEX who enters the game as a batter in a different position in the batting order than the DP.

3.3.6.6: Placing the FLEX into one of the first nine positions for someone other than the original DP is considered an illegal substitution. The illegal substitute shall be removed from the game and restricted to the bench.

3.4.2 If illegal offensive players is discovered while at bat, then: Restriction, called out, proper batter loses her turn at bat, and next batter is up.

In the original scenario - if caught at bat, sub is out and restricted, B1 loses turn, B2 is up to bat.

If she is discovered between innings (as Chasbo noted) then all play stands, but sub is still going to be restricted.

2003 ASA rules state the same with respect to the DEFO batting in the first nine position other than the DP. However, if discovered while at bat, illegal played is DQ'd, but not out, and regular batter comes up with same count.

WMB

WMB,
Those are fine, but inapplicable rules (the ones I could find), but it could still be rationalized that FLEX went in unannounced at #6 and batted out of turn.
Nowhere in the sitch was there shown an attempt that new FLEX tried to bat for anyone, but "possibly" DP.

Now, if B2 was in the on deck position and B1 was hidng in the dugout, then you may have something of an illegal sub sitch instead of a BOO sitch.

And nowhere in the sitch was there any discovery of BOO.
That was just a woulda, coulda, shoulda. But it didn't happen.

I do not see how a DQ can be assessed. I find it extremely difficult to believe that the spirit and intent of NFHS, in determining what to do with the excited new FLEX who batted out of turn, is to disqualify the player.

mick

Re: Re: Re: ASA - I meant NFHS
 

To start, it isn't an ejection, it is a disqualification. And it is for being an illegal batter, not for BOO.

I don't understand how you can rule a BOO without citing an unreported substitute. If it isn't an unreported sub, than it must be an illegal player. BOO is when a batter in the line-up hits in a spot in the order other than their own. The FLEX is NOT in the batting order unless they have reported as a sub for the DP. I don't believe you can have it both was and say this was simpy a BOO.

But, then again, I'm not big on NFHS rules as it is.

Re: Re: Re: Re: ASA - I meant NFHS
 

Thanks, Mike,
I dunno either.
I was trying to use reason, but then I am left-handed and think differently.
You prolly know more about Fed rules than I.
But I think, we both know that a few more words in the book can generally help. :)
mick

Gentlefolk,

Consider the following scenario. Flora the Flex mistakenly leads off the 4th inning and walks, B1 and B2 follow her at bat and both walk, B3 and B4 then strike out. Now Donna the DP comes to the plate and after a pitch or two is thrown to her, the derensive coach comes out and points out that Flora is on 3rd and Donna is now batting. So what do you do to fix things?

Now an illegal sub is still a substitute, so when Flora illegally batted for B1, B1 left the game and when she came up to bat, she was illegally re-entering in B2's position which makes B1 an illegal sub as well, and so on down to Donna (B5) who is illegally batting for B6. So technically speaking, we have 6 illegal subs and the team only has 13 players, so are we going home early or what?

SamC

Yeah, Sam,
6 illegal subs or 1 to 6 BOO. That'd be fun.:cool:
mick

Ah, but if you simply rule that Flora was BOO, then the 1st pitch to B1 made her legal, and the 1st pitch to B2 made B1 legal, so there is no BOO; so all we are left with is Donna illegally "re-entering" for Flora, i.e. 1 illegal sub insread of 6.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this interp won't fly since 3-1-4.b.2.PENALTY explicitly states: "The penalty for illegal substitution supercedes the batting out of order penalty." So given the choice is any given situation, we must choose to enforce the illegal substiitution penalty.

Still, I eagerly wait other people's replies.

SamC

The bad thing about this situation is that is is not a situation that is not only possible but likely to happen to all of us at some point. After this thread is over I wouldnt mind having a handy pocket cheat sheet with all the possibilities and results after this happens.

Yeah, me too, Dukat.
...A cheat sheet, or a coupla more words in the book.:)
mick

The sub for the FLEX can legally bat in the #6 spot.

The sub for the FLEX can not legally bat in the #1 spot.

So, you have a choice - BOO (skipping over 5 positions in the order) plus an unreported substitute, or...

Illegal batter.

While it is unlikely that the batter came to bat thinking she was batting for the DP, nevertheless, unless I thought the offense was trying to pull something, I would go for the least punative option (BOO, unreported sub), mostly because it keeps the player in the game (speaking NFHS).

Thank you, Tom. :)

Why are we guessing anything? The facts are (1)The coach ONLY said that he was subbing for the FLEX. Nothing else. (2) The Flex batted between the #9 and # 1 position. (3) She was discovered between innings.

So - Why is everybody ignoring the written rule?

NFHS 2.57.2: An Illegal Substitute is (c) the FLEX who enters the game as a batter in a different position in the batting order than the DP.

3.3.6.6: Placing the FLEX into one of the first nine positions for someone other than the original DP is considered an illegal substitution. The illegal substitute shall be removed from the game and restricted to the bench.

RESULT: all play stands, player is restricted to bench. Need new FLEX. Simple!

WMB

There you go again, WMB, not letting anyone make things up! I'm bummed! http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-012.gif

So, you send me back to the rule book and guess what I found...

NFHS 3-4-1b PENALTYhttp://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-023.gifGame, set, match for WMB. Good job! http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-003.gif

Sell me.
 

Oh, my!
Help me understand the difference.
Why is it an illegal substitution for [(announced for FLEX, unannounced for DP)legal, but out-of-order] B6 to bat before B1, but it is batting out-of-order when B3 bats before B1.

Why, then, are not all BOO's considered illegal substitutions?

Thanks, http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/deadhorse.gif
mick

Re: Sell me.
 

Because not all those people are illegal substitutes. For that matter, they could have been a starter, never left the game and still BOO in the 7th inning.

Guys,

I'm not arguing that because the FLEX batted between the 9th and 1st batters, she therefore illegally subbed for B1. I even mentioned the rule about illegal subs taking precedence over BOO. My question is, how do you handle the scenario that I presented where you techinically have 6 illegal subs, not just 1? Do you disqualify them all and if the team does not have enough players do you then declare a forfeit?

SamC

They cannot be illegal subs if they are already in the game.

Sam,
I may follow the "seems fair" category unless using the poorly written rule is advantageous to me.
Other than that, I'll wait'll next year when Fed fixes it.
I've never seen the sitch yet, so maybe it's a non-problem.
mick

But that is the point that I'm trying to make here; an illegal sub is still a sub which mens that B1 is no longer in the game when the FLEX comes up to bat in her position. Therefore when B1 comes up to bat after the FLEX, she is illegalllu returning to the lineup in B2's position thereby mking B1 an illegal sub too and so on right down the line as each batter comes up in turn. So in my scenario, with the FLEX, B1, and B2 on base, B3 and B4 in rhe dugout on strike outs, and B5 at the plate, it's pretty obvious that you now have 6 illegal players in the game, and by rule they all should be disqualified.

I guess the real point that I am trying to make here is that all of you folks doing HS ball in states new to the DP/FLEX rule have to be diligent in yout lineup management so as to not allow this to happen.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on Apr 21st, 2004 at 05:32 PM]

That's nuts. Batting out of order is not a substitution, much less an illegal one.

The nub of all this is the rule (2.57.2 in NFHS) that is a rule for the special case of the FLEX and its counterpart for the DP. Those positions are special cases, governed by a special rule even though other players are not. That means that any offense by the player who is FLEX, other than replacing the DP, is illegal substitution.

Even if it does not seem consistent to say FLEX for B1 is illegal substitution and B5 batting for B3 is not, it is correct because the rule is written that way for the special cases of FLEX and DP.

NFHS and ASA have different penalties for illegal subs, but the key is identifying whether it is, then worrying about DQ vs. RTB and out or not, etc.

Unless it is an illegal reentry.
Ann is B1, Betty is B2, Clarissa, Dorothy, Eveline, et al follow. Sally is reported as sub for Ann and bats.

Ann thought Sally batted for Irene (B9), the coach is ordering a hot dog, so Ann bats after Sally. Sally batted in the B1 slot, so Ann is now in the B2 slot. Then Betty, Clarissa, et al continue the progression they have used all through the game. Each player starting with Ann bats in a different position of the batting order than they started in, so they are illegal reentries. With 10 of them doing that, even Sally is an illegal reentry the next time if it continues that long.

Actually, the only thing inconsistent about FLEX coming to bat for someone other than the DP is that the FLEX is not entering the game.

NFHS rules state that when you have a sub entering the game in an illegal position in the batting order, that the illegal sub penalty takes precedence over the BOO penalty (e.g. S1 was the sub earlier for B5, and is reentering the game; she mistakenly comes to bat when B4 is due up; according to NFHS, this is not to be considered a sub for B5 batting out of order, but an illegal sub for B4).

Of course, to keep this from happening, all the coach / player has to do is announce the substitution; a pro-active umpire will look at his lineup card and tell the coach he can't do that now.

Re: Re: Re: ASA - I meant NFHS
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
[B]Mick,

If I have interpreted your word usage of "roster" correctly,
then this player may not be disqualified.
The lineup card would be the only roster I, as an umpire, would
be involved with for NFHS.
NFHS Rule 3-3-1 <b>A player, who is not listed as an eligible
sub on the lineup card, shall not be prohibited from playing.

Re: Re: Re: Re: ASA - I meant NFHS
 

...pickin' someone up, off the street.
mick

:D
 

Legal,

Just tell the Blue you left her off the lineup card.:D