Wanted to see what some of you veterans felt about a play that happened last night. My first year as UIC, and I was "given" an official who absolutely had no clue. This is an adult that coaches in other local leagues, and actually one I nearly ejected from a PeeWee football game, although I didn't know it was him until he showed up to work last night - not really in uniform (knit light blue non-reg shirt and a Navy ballcap with a logo on it).

In pregame, I showed him A, B, and C, and told him I'd call the infield flies. His "What's an infield fly" let me know it would be a long night.

Anyway... here's the situation.

Pitcher throws an inside pitch, batter fouls it off, and I mistakenly call foul ball. About half a second later, I realize on my own that she hit the catcher's glove on the way through. By the time I start to change my call, coaches are already yelling "Catcher's Interference!!!"

Not wanting to make it appear that I was changing my call BECAUSE of the coaches, but knowing it needed to be changed, I jog out to my BU (sitting at position C and a half, and who stepped in maybe 2 steps to greet me instead of jogging in also), put my arm around him and tell him to just nod his head "Yes". He does so, and I direct the batter to first base. (Another reminder that this guy was lost is that he never asked me why I did that later ... If a PU had done that to me when I was new, I'd have played along, but SURELY asked what he was doing, if for no other reason than to learn).

Now --- other than suggestions to get rid of this guy until he can read the rulebook and visit a few clinics, what do you think of handling the catcher's interference this way?

mcrowder,
I'll play charades to help a partner, but for my own screwups, though I have done it your way, I'll generally say, "Yes, catcher's interference! My fault!", and take the little, well-deserved heat that may come my way.
mick
<HR>
A new, weak partner is still a partner.

Yes, but there are new, weak partners that want to learn, and there are new, weak partners that don't care. This was the latter.

I see your point, and perhaps it would have been better to just take the heat myself.

I have to admit though, that when I was jogging back to home, settling in, I was wondering if BU would come ask me about it later. Kind of hoping he would to show me some glimmer of hope.

mcrowder,
Communication is important.
Most of the time, it doesn't matter *who goes first*.
You obviously were given an opportunity to teach, but perhaps you were pre-disposed to dislike the guy.
That happens.
But then we ask, "Is that partner a better, smarter ump for having worked with me tonight?"
mick

Unfortunatley some umpires are nothing more then warm bodies with a blue shirt. No matter how much time you want to spend with them to make them better, you can't make them care.
I have the same thing going with our small group of 30. Half of them want nothing more then little girls slow pitch, wear the complete uniform occasionally, and never attend a clinic.

You say he coaches in local leagues. So, hopefully we can assume he wants to help out. Maybe somebody should talk to him about how important it is to know the rules, and look official on the field. Brian

I am man enough to admit that I was predisposed to dislike the guy. After all, he was nothing but trouble as a coach when I was reffing his peewee football games (for 2 years now).

I will even admit that when I saw him walking toward the field (I had a game before his), wearing the light blue, my first thought was, "Oh, No."

But once that game was over, and pregame started, I really gave it an effort to try to see if I could get him ready. I asked a couple of questions beforehand and realized I was working from zero (this despite the claim that he'd been umping for 4 years in a nearby area - and area that changed 3 times in different conversations, no less). I showed him A, B, and C, and explained not just where to go and when, but WHY to go there when you go there. This was greeted with alternating blank stares and in-depth examinations of right field. I tried to explain the infield fly rule (not just the rule, but the reason), but was interrupted enough that even after his head-nodding, I didn't think he got it, or cared to get it.

I really didn't this to become a "Slam-the-new-ump" thread. I was really more interested in feedback on the overruling myself. But I appreciate the comments regarding the newbie. This is my first year as UIC, so that kind of feedback is welcome as well.

mcrowder,
You answered the question.
Given his new knowledge, he was, then, a better ump for having worked with you. ;)
mick

Given his apparent lack of knowledge and mechanics - I might have been predisposed to having him call safes and outs at 1st and 2nd only. Let him work up to complete coverage.

-Kono

Mick,

I certainly hope that you wouldn't say such a thing. It's obstruction.

I'm smarter than I was.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:

Originally posted by mick I'll generally say, "Yes, catcher's interference! My fault!", and take the little, well-deserved heat that may come my way. mick Mick, I certainly hope that you wouldn't say such a thing. It's obstruction.

Dang it!
On the bigger diamond it's catcher's interference.
I'll fix that.
Thanks, Mike.

mick

Re: I'm smarter than I was.
 

Well...no...technically it is obstruction there as well. :D

Re: Re: I'm smarter than I was. OH, Man!!!!
 

Geez!!!?!?
Is that a change?
I just looked up J/R, and it said "interference".
Heck, I'm no better than a fan. :rolleyes:
mick
<HR>
Mask for sale ... cheap.

Often people refer to to catcher's obstruction as CI, especially in the baseball world. I think that is because in OBR rule 6:8:C says "...the catcher or any fielder interferes with him (the batter)..."

However, OBR defines obstruction in much the same way as ASA or anyone else, which is the act of a fielder impeding a batter, BR, or runner.

I'm a jack off four sports, master of none.
mick

Mick:

Are you absolutely sure that is the way you want to word that?

I just calls 'em like I sees 'em. :cool:

Mick - "Off" = "Of"? We hope?

mcrowder,
I can tolerate improper interps and mechanics from partners, but not from myself.

Clearly, I am not "on" my game. ;)
mick

Mick:

Now I think maybe you understand what I was asking you in my last post, don't you?! ;)

Well, I certainly feel better now. I was reading down through the posts, wondering when someone would pick up on the interference reference. All the advice was excellent on the new umpire and working with him, I just couldn't figure out why the interference statement was corrected.

Leave it to Mike to correct the situation. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/clap.gif

After looking at this, this guy IS clapping his hands, isn't he, instead of doing something else?

Yes, Scott,
I knew from the gitgo.
There was no typo.
mick

Hey, I'm gonna tell the monitor! Do you know who that is, MICK!?!?

Well, I ain't a king, or a queen, off 4 sports.
And besides, I thought I was being moderate.

Thanks again for your help. ;)
mick

I'm a jack off four sports, master of none.
mick


Freudian Slip?

J/K :P

Nope.
Boxers.

I'll just stay out of this....Seems the originial question
was answered and Mick's reply, well.....

Even when umpiring?

Bad memory!
 

Ooh! Yeah, I did wear 'em once. Bad choice!
McDavid Interawear with cupholder for me. ;)

Update on our new umpire. Gave him another shot last night, schedule for 2 games - 6 and 7:30, working with me. 6:00 ... no blue. Working alone. Fun. 7:15 rolls around, and there he is. "Sorry, Mike - got stuck at work. Called you at work around 5:50, but you weren't there." 1) Yeah, dumba$$ - I was at the field by then. 2) My phone shows when I miss a call, even if you don't leave a message - you didn't call.

Well, the 2nd game is the older girls, so I grudgingly let him on the field. Reteach the A,B,C's, including the why's. Teach him where to move when the ball is hit. Newbie is a treestump when the game starts - stuck in A. 1/2 inning goes by, and I remind him that not only should he move when the ball goes in play, but he should start in different places depending on where the runners are. He moves a little bit this time.

Luckily, we have a forfeit on the other field, so I go 3 man on mine. Well, sort of. We go 2 man, with an added treestump of an umpire planted on the foul side of 3rd base, regardless of who's on base and where the ball is hit (even called a baserunner safe from back there on a passed ball - at least he moved his arms). We actually had, at many times, me at home, 1BU in B or C position, and 3BU in D position. Glad the UIC wasn't there ... oh wait - that's me.

Feeling perturbed, after an inning where the only baserunner was a walk, passedball to 2nd, passedball to 3rd, and 3 outs (the runner on 3rd never left), I go ask him - did you notice the runner missed third? (The runner never had a chance to miss third). He says "Yes, but I didn't know if I should say anything."

It was a nice last day for him.

Sounds like a great choice - letting him go. I learned a long time ago - but still have to relearn now & then - you just can't polish a turd.

Steve and mcrowder,
I agree.
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An <Font size = 4 color = green><B>L</B></Font> of a short career.
mick

What a great thread to read now. We start our season with the "umpires" tourney on Saturday. We work for free and donate the money to charity. It's an opportunity to give the rookies a taste of game sits without anything on the line and us old farts are on the fields beside them or at the fences coaching.

Hope you haven't put me in a prejudicial mindset.

I kid, I kid.

I guess I'll ask the question why you had to correct yourself on the foul ball call because it was a foul ball and seeings the batter didn't reach first base and all runners if there were any didn't advance one base the offensive coach has his option of taking the result of the play or the award for catchers obstruction. It's not your choice it's the coaches. I have seen coaches make dummer decisions. I also have some bad feelings about how you are talking about your partner. We all had to start somewhere and maybe you don't care for him because of previous incounters with him, but he is your partner. We all have worked with partners we didn't really care for but as a UIC it is your duty and responsibility to help train and help these people along,not run them off. As a veteran official I feel it would be your duty to pass on your knowledge to him instead of talk him down. As a UIC don't you have any training for your umpires and why would you put an untrained umpire on the field in the first place, did you run all the others off? I'm glad your not my UIC.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Apr 17th, 2004 at 12:37 AM]

Sorry, Ed, if I'm not up to your standards.

First, regarding the play - I don't understand your question. I didn't call obstruction at first, and then realized it WAS catcher's obstruction, and sent her to first.

Regarding the umpire - Yes, as UIC it's my responsibility and duty to train my umpires as well as possible. I believed I described my efforts along those lines. I'm sure this guy was ABLE to learn. However, after 3 games, he demonstrated completely that he was UNWILLING to learn. He simply wouldn't make any effort at all.

As to how I ended up with this guy on the field without training ... I have 6 guys - which is normally enough to cover my games. This particular weekend, I learned early on that I had several guys out of town. I asked the baseball UIC if he had anyone I could call that wasn't already working - and this was who he gave me. I was told he'd umpired before elsewhere, and didn't realize from the name that he was the guy I had problems with at football.

I've since learned that the baseball UIC has also stopped scheduling this guy. Basically for the same reasons, and then some. It was actually worse for them, as I'm told his cellphone rang DURING a play, and he answered it, turning away from the infield to do so.

I don't like giving up on ANYone ... as I do remember my first year (no training, no mentoring, hope you know the rules, kid). But you've got to show me a WILLINGNESS to learn.

My question would be how did he get on the field with a cell phone on him anyway???

What am I going to do, frisk the guy?

Sorry if I seemed over bearing but I have been dealing with a lot of senior officials in my area that seem to think they are too good to help others that are less capable to do the job as they are. Your explaination speaks for itself. Sorry you also have a shortage of officials as many do everywhere.

Update - I just accidentally bumped into a solution to my umpire shortage. Called my assignor for high-school football to make sure he'd gotten my dues and I hadn't missed any emails (hadn't heard from him since the end of the season). In passing, I mention my empathy for his scheduling problems, as I'm now UIC for Softball in my area... and he eagerly volunteers. I have no idea if he's any good, but I know from working football with him that he CARES, and HUSTLES.

Hallelujah!

So if you're shorthanded in your area, apparently the solution is to go work football! :)