NFHS Fastpitch:

R1 on 2nd and R2 on 1st. 3 balls no strikes on B1. Next pitch is ball four and deflects off catchers helment and goes out of play. Umpire awards R1 home and R2 third and B1 1B on ball four. Doe the runners advance to 2nd 3rd on the ball four and then to home and third due to the ball going out of play? Your comments are appreciated.

Scoots34,

Welcome to the board.

Runners are awarded one base from the time of pitch (TOP)

Similar situation 10U ASA....

Runner on 3rd, wild pitch lodges in backstop netting.
Do you award runner home?

There have been two schools of thought in our local league. First is, the award is given from TOP. Second thought is, runner may not steal home, therefore you can't award home. My thoughts have always been make the award.

I haven't done a 10U in a long time, but the Mrs still does. This question was debated by her and her partner, and UIC gave them a ruling last night.

What Say Ye?

Similar situation 10U ASA....

Runner on 3rd, wild pitch lodges in backstop netting.
Do you award runner home?

There have been two schools of thought in our local league. First is, the award is given from TOP. Second thought is, runner may not steal home, therefore you can't award home. My thoughts have always been make the award.

I haven't done a 10U in a long time, but the Mrs still does. This question was debated by her and her partner, and UIC gave them a ruling last night.

What Say Ye
__________________________________________________ ___
Jel,

10U Rule ASA 8-4H.

6. Runners can only score on:
a) a batted ball,
b) a base on balls or hit batter with bases full or,
c) on an awarded base with the ball goes:
1) out of play, or
2) on an illegal pitch.

Yes, make the award.

According to the article I read the umpires awarded R1 home thus ending the game in the bottom of the 8th. I cannot find any justification for this in the rule book. Any thoughts??

Jel,

10U Rule ASA 8-4H.

6. Runners can only score on:
a) a batted ball,
b) a base on balls or hit batter with bases full or,
c) on an awarded base with the ball goes:
1) out of play, or
2) on an illegal pitch.

Yes, make the award.


Yep, That was the ruling! There were a couple of Umps, (lots of seniority) leaning to the no award. Even after having 8-4-H pointed out to them.

Where was this article? Maybe there was something you were missing in the situation- or they are just wrong!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hugo Tafurst2
[B]Where was this article? Maybe there was something you were missing in the situation- or they are just wrong!


[Edited by Scoots34 on Mar 31st, 2004 at 09:32 AM]

Scoots 34, we had something similar recently.
Where are you located?
BTW, welcome to the board

Tampa. I read this situation on TBOonline.com

scoots34

What is the web address for the site? I went to TBOonline.com
and came up with bunch of cell phone and other electronic
equipment information.
Of course I have had trouble typing all day.

Heck, I tried it and got an offer to sell the web site to me. Started to do it and then I realized I didn't need one.

Next time I tried, I got the Tobacco ads...LOL

Here is the link. Not sure how long it will be avaialable so Ihave included the important parts of the article.

http://prepsports.tbo.com/prepsports/MGAKUMBZGSD.html

"It proved to be memorable as Bloomingdale's Melissa Mestre reached base on a fielder's choice in the eighth inning and Jasmine Rivera walked, putting runners on first and second with two outs. The Bulls' Allison Kime was ahead on the count 3-0 against Durant pitcher Krysta Harris (8-3). The next pitch was high and bounced off Durant catcher Lauren Pulling's helmet, sailing over the back fence. Not only did Kime walk, but Bloomingdale (17-2) also was awarded an extra base because the ball bounced out of bounds, scoring Mestre from third. "

TROLL ALERT
 

Hmmm I smell a troll.
Earlier today you said you were from DesMoines Iowa, now you are from Tampa.
Who are you?

How can you score a runner from third? There was not runner on third at the TOP. Says runners were on 2nd and 1st when ball 4 went out of play. I have bases loaded, no score.

Re: TROLL ALERT
 

Troll or not, I just sent an EMail to the author of the article, inquiring if something was missing.....

Re: TROLL ALERT
 

______________________________________

Scottk_61,

That was my very first post, then I decided, No, maybe
this guy/gal is serious, so I started my post over and
just answered the question. I have tried TBOonline.com
very way I can think of and see nothing related to
softball.

Hmmm,,,,
 

I don't know about scoots34 or the supposed article online but:

There was a ruling down here for a game in the Tampa area that happened pretty much as scoots34 posted.

The umpires ruled:
Ball four, no swing when appealed.
Batter gets first base which forces R1 and R2 to second and third.
Then the award for the ball going out of play, which is one base.
The ruling has been upheld
We all need to apply the rulings for each award and teh situation instead of stopping at just one.
I believe the rule is 8-4-3c and d under the NFHS rules, I don't have my book handy.
It is unusual to have a dual award but it does happen on rare occasions.
I wonder how many other award rulings I have missed because I stoped at the first penalty application?

Lots of people from ASA Fed and NCAA with many many years of umpiring experience looked at this and all ruled the same thing when presented with the situation.

I have to admit, I thought this was it but waited to see what others said.

On a second note, who is scoots34? and why did they try to deceive us yesterday?

I emailed
 

I emailed the author.
Seems like that was what happened.

The only way I can see the two base award would be if after the "deflection", F2 actually knocked the ball out of play while trying to retrieve it.

Too bad the coach didn't know the rule either. Although FL does not allow protests, if she had brought it to the umpire's attention (in a timely fasion, of course), maybe they would have realized the mistake.

Re: I emailed
 

you have to remember, it is not a two base award,
it is two single base awards
One for ball four that moves the runner to third on the force then the single base award for the ball being thrown out of play.
This is how it was explained to me.

Question?
the author responded to you?
I couldn't get an email though to them

Re: Hmmm,,,,
 

My book reads something like this:

""Rule 8-4-3:.. a runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out
when:...(c)(FP) a wild pitch or passed ball lodges in or goes under, over or
thru a backstop.
PENALTY: The ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base only. The batter
is awarded first base only on the fourth ball."

Read the penalty comment under (c).

And that is the way I've always understood it...

Re: Re: Hmmm,,,,
 

Under the penalty,
this is problem with so many people not understanding grammer
The batter gets first base on teh fouth ball only, not on ball two or ball three.
It doesn't say the batter only gets first base on ball four which would require a comma after the word only in your quote.

so goes the explanation

My 2 cents.

How can you award runners and a batter any bases on a DEAD ball leaving the field of play?

The second the pitched ball hits the batter, it is dead. I don't care if it bounces to Mars, you cannot award any more bases other than what is permissible for a HBP, even in Federation ball.

Maybe I am seeing this all wrong, but here is what I have
now.

<i>R1 on 2nd and R2 on 1st. 3 balls no strikes on B1. Next pitch is ball four and deflects off catchers helment and goes out of play. Umpire awards R1 home and R2 third and B1 1B on ball four. Doe the runners advance to 2nd 3rd on the ball four and then to home and third due to the ball going out of play? Your comments are appreciated.</i>

There is no award to BR, it was ball four. She goes to
1B, Ball goes out of play. R1 and R2 had both advanced
because of ball four on the batter. Since at TOP, R1 was
on 2nd and R2 on 1st, I would not award either another
base.

Shoot me if I am wrong.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Mike, Mike,

The ball hit the catcher's helment.

BANG!

(Just kidding)

So..you have bases loaded. Then that is the correct interpretation of this play.

Scott,

Not sure it is the correct interp, but it is what
I have until I see a ruling more concrete.

Okay..then at least we are thinking the same way here. Is that a better way to put it?

Re: Hmmm,,,,
 

I don't know, but it sure has us on the go to find a correct
ruling for this play.

Let's Start over (somewhat)
 

NFHS
R1 (on 2nd)
R2 (on 1st)
Count 2-Balls, 0-Strikes
Pitch is delivered - Ball 4 - and goes out of play (deflected off F2's helmet)
DEAD BALL

Ok we all agree, right? Good NOW.......

Dead ball table says:
"DEAD BALL IMMEDIATELY...
Activity:
...#16: A pitched ball that becomes blocked (F.P)
Reference:
5-1-1g

AWARD or PENALTIES:
...#16 Award all runners one base from time of pitch
(my emphasis)
References:
8-4-3c"

"Rule 8-4-3:.. a runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:...(c)(FP) a wild pitch or passed ball lodges in or goes under, over or thru a backstop.
PENALTY: The ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base only. The batter
is awarded first base only on the fourth ball."


Still so far so good?, Good....

Is someone (other than the umpire who ruled in the original situation) saying that the runners are advanced TWO bases?
One because they were forced by the batter's walk and another because the ball has gone out of play?

I've been wrong before, but I don't buy that at all...
The dead ball table specifically says the award is from the time of the pitch...

The rule specifically says ONE base.

If the rule waqs meant otherwise, then the batter who was walked should get to second, shouldn't she?
Awarded first on the walk and second on the dead ball!!

Mike, Mike,

The ball hit the catcher's helment. [/B][/QUOTE]

D'oh! Okay, I'm awake now. What's a helment?

Okay, let's try again.

For me, I offering ASA

Bases loaded based on the sentence in 8.5.C.Effect which states:

The batter is awarded first base only on the fourth ball.

Oh well,
 

We just got the letter from teh state that says they have now decided that the ruling was wrong.
Our guys will be better umpires for it.
But it is so strange to me that so many ruled the same way but are hung up on teh

last part of the sentance which grammatically does not ONLY give the batter first base.

Almost all the ASA people agreed with the ruling.
The majority of the NFHS people gave teh same ruling.
Most NCAA people ruled the same........

Sounds like somewhere we all got it wrong or the ruling body has got it wrong now.
What do you want to be there will be some cleaning up of the language in teh rule book next year?

Oh well, live and learn.
I am proud of the guy who made the ruling, I know him well.
He will be a better umpire for the situation as will we all.

Re: Let's Start over (somewhat)
 

Hugo,

I went through the same procedure in an earlier post. However,
because of the way the penalty award reads, BR ain't going to 2B.
I have the bases loaded. Play on.

Re: Oh well,
 

__________________
Pardoon my french, but what is the damn ruling?

Re: Re: Oh well,
 

Sorry about dropping the ruling out of my post.
But they are saying only fist base is given and force the two runners.
Now, consider that who the went to for a ruling is a member of the association that rarely shows up, hasn't participated in years BUT sits on the states rule committe.

There are people within the association that want to challenge the ruling of the state as being based on improper reading of the penalty.
Failing to be grammatically correct, I guess.
I am really amazed that so many agree with the umpires on teh field but only a few do not and that is where we are, in a steady debate.

This one is long from over as far as I can see.
Should get interesting,
I will keep you guys up to date when I hear more.

Scott

My two cents: batter gets first only. Runners move up one base only from TOP. There is no "double" award. Bases loaded.

Even if, by the time the ball went into DBT, the runners had advanced to and passed the next base—even if the runner from 2B had crossed the plate—they get one base from TOP.

I've seen that call blown many times. Just because these umpires ruled the wrong way and somebody else upheld it, the rules don't change.

Speaking FED:

I think Hugo quoted the definitive ruling which is presented in the dead ball table in Section 5. which says:<ul><b>A pitched ball becomes blocked: award all runners 1 base from the TOP.</b></ul>

SamC